Rudy Giuliani sure didn’t sound healthy during his appearance on Fox News last night as he railed against Democrats for over-reacting to the coronavirus. At the end of the interview, he revealed he’s awaiting the results of his own COVID-19 test.

Appearing on The Story with Martha MacCallum last night, Giuliani criticized Joe Biden for saying he'll follow experts' advice on proper procedures for the next presidential debate. Giuliani suggested Biden should go with his gut instead. As mayor, Giuliani said, “I didn’t always listen to the experts. The experts aren’t always right. Nobody elected the experts. They elected you.”

He added, “I’ll give you an example. Scientists may want you to shut down out of an excess of caution. But you may realize that the damage of shutdown is greater than if you don’t shut down.”

“Yeah,” MacCallum agreed.

“In other words, you’re going to kill people. People are going to die of suicide or - ” Giuliani poised there.

FACT CHECK: More than 210,000 Americans have died of coronavirus vs. fewer than 50,000 suicides a year. Both are terrible and both should be addressed as much as possible. But from a sheer numbers perspective, it couldn’t be clearer which is the greater threat to public health. Furthermore, suicides had reached historic highs prior to the pandemic. Let me know if you ever heard a Trumper worry about suicides before he or she was able to weaponize it.

MacCallum said nothing about any of that. So Giuliani continued.

GIULIANI: There are no experts on governing. There’s no such things as scientific rules for governing. That tells me the difference between a man who’s never been an executive - Joe Biden, 47 years doing basically nothing in Congress, Senate; and a man who’s been an executive, who has to make decisions for other people.

Not surprisingly, “ultimate professional” MacCallum did not point out that Trump’s tax returns show an executive who has failed spectacularly at business. Instead, she offered the mildest of pushback, suggesting that relying on science is a matter of opinion.

MACCALLUM: But when you look at the polls – and I know that everybody questions the polls – But pretty consistently, um, Joe Biden does – outperforms the president on who would handle COVID better. So, there seems to be a lot of appetite for people who think that the president has been not serious enough about following these guidelines, at least if you believe those numbers.

Or if you believe your own eyes, given that Trump refuses to follow health and safety guidelines and now it seems like every hour someone else in his orbit is testing positive. MacCallum didn’t mention that either, of course, nor the recent revelations that Trump deliberately lied to the public about the seriousness of the virus.

Instead, she let Giuliani discount public opinion, as if there’s no way to know whether Trump has adequately handed the pandemic or not.

GIULIANI: Given the experience in the last couple of elections, particularly the one in ’16, I don’t know personally how much credit to give any of these polls.

I can see why people might favor the Biden approach because they’ve been frightened so much. I mean, they’ve really been traumatized by – at the beginning, correctly. What has happened – and I think this is largely the Democrat governors and mayors, they just want to keep up the shutdown.

MacCallum nodded.

Then, the guy who had just attacked Biden for following scientific experts, accused Democrats of not following science.

GIULIANI: For reasons that are no longer scientific. There’s nothing scientific about closing schools right now. In fact, it defies the science.

“Ultimate professional” MacCallum agreed. “There is a lot of interesting indications that the lockdowns were overdone in a number of ways.”

She closed the interview by saying, “I hope that cough is not anything bad.”

“I hope so, too!” Giuliani said, sounding rather hoarse.

We’ll hope it was just allergies or a cold or something far less serious than COVID-19 plaguing Giuliani. In the meanwhile, you can watch him below, from the October 5, 2020 The Story with Martha MacCallum.

(H/T reader Eric Jefferson)