Do you like this post?
Bemused commented
2020-01-16 06:54:42 -0500
· Flag
I’m really disturbed by Elizabeth’s tone of voice when confronting Bernie after the debate: thin-skin-ed-ness at its worst. Almost Trump-ian in tone.
I have absolutely no difficulty in believing that two people can have differing recollections about a conversation that apparently happened months ago. What I find disturbing is that this truly silly story has taken on a life of its own because Liz won’t let it go. Can’t expect the media to take the lead in doing that.
Oh well. I finally have something to put into her “con” column of my Pro and cons table.
I have absolutely no difficulty in believing that two people can have differing recollections about a conversation that apparently happened months ago. What I find disturbing is that this truly silly story has taken on a life of its own because Liz won’t let it go. Can’t expect the media to take the lead in doing that.
Oh well. I finally have something to put into her “con” column of my Pro and cons table.
Kevin Koster commented
2020-01-15 17:03:28 -0500
· Flag
Eyes and I normally agree, but I do need to provide some counter here.
1. Medicare and SS can be stabilized through very simple tweaks. Just remove the salary cap and make a tiny increase to employer side payroll taxes. I believe the retirement age issue is already being dealt with (it’s going up by a little). These tweaks could and should have been done years ago, but Republicans refused to allow them. Partly due to them all signing the nonsensical Grover Norquist pledge, and partly due to the Right Wing hoping to destabilize, defund, delegitimize and then discard these programs.
2. The Pence White House did not give “populist tax cuts” really to anyone. The Republican Tax Transfer of 2017 RAISED taxes for Middle Class Employees and Blue State residents. Skyrocketed them, in fact. Working class families saw negligible difference from the rates. And at the same time, the big corps and the super wealthy got GIANT TAX CUTS. Which, yes, are generating massive deficits. And those deficits are intentional as well – allowing the Right Wing to follow the plan discussed in #1 above.
3. An actual Single Payer healthcare system would be a better idea in the US, as it has been in many countries around the world. We just haven’t reached the point where enough Americans are comfortable with having it. I believe we’ll get there, but it won’t be for another few actual presidents.
4. Dems already have several electable candidates. Any one of the Dems in the race could win in November. It’s simply a matter of whether the 2-3 million active Dem voters across the swing states have learned their lesson about having stayed home in 2016.
1. Medicare and SS can be stabilized through very simple tweaks. Just remove the salary cap and make a tiny increase to employer side payroll taxes. I believe the retirement age issue is already being dealt with (it’s going up by a little). These tweaks could and should have been done years ago, but Republicans refused to allow them. Partly due to them all signing the nonsensical Grover Norquist pledge, and partly due to the Right Wing hoping to destabilize, defund, delegitimize and then discard these programs.
2. The Pence White House did not give “populist tax cuts” really to anyone. The Republican Tax Transfer of 2017 RAISED taxes for Middle Class Employees and Blue State residents. Skyrocketed them, in fact. Working class families saw negligible difference from the rates. And at the same time, the big corps and the super wealthy got GIANT TAX CUTS. Which, yes, are generating massive deficits. And those deficits are intentional as well – allowing the Right Wing to follow the plan discussed in #1 above.
3. An actual Single Payer healthcare system would be a better idea in the US, as it has been in many countries around the world. We just haven’t reached the point where enough Americans are comfortable with having it. I believe we’ll get there, but it won’t be for another few actual presidents.
4. Dems already have several electable candidates. Any one of the Dems in the race could win in November. It’s simply a matter of whether the 2-3 million active Dem voters across the swing states have learned their lesson about having stayed home in 2016.
El 84 commented
2020-01-15 14:33:58 -0500
· Flag
The “free stuff” fallacy ignores that taxing the rich and wealth again would give us a tax base to really have a great society and infrastructure. We used to have public ambulances, for example. Now we have Predator state fees that are grossly inflated for corporate profits, the stock market, and often subsidized.
El 84 commented
2020-01-15 14:31:52 -0500
· Flag
Oh, so not a debate. None of them are EL84’s, which sound great and really sing.
Follower since 2004. I love outfoxing Fox.
#thebeagle
Follower since 2004. I love outfoxing Fox.
#thebeagle
Eyes On Fox commented
2020-01-15 10:10:30 -0500
· Flag
John, I’ll got a bit further on ‘plans for this and plans for that’. They aren’t really plans at all. They’re simple-minded populist notions. Republicans bribe voters with crackpot tax cutting schemes. Democrats with unrealistic free/cheap government benefits. The s—t never quite works out. Neither Medicare nor Social Security are secure financially (nor is any government program). Maybe we should fix at least these first? Trump’s populist tax cuts are a sugar high using mountains of debt. We need to not only stop the bleeding but pay off his excesses.
I have both Medicare and employer’s private insurance (long story, I’m on disability). To summarize, Medicare sucks. Not just a little. Medicare sucks donkey… ah, never mind. Both Sanders and Warren plan to force everyone on that pile of s—t. But, of course, they promise when they’re done it’ll be be blanket of sweet smelling roses, healthcare Nirvana. Not just Nirvana but cheap, cheap ‘what a deal’ Nirvana. It’s like listening to the shills on TV say “but wait, there’s more”.
Not only are they going to pay for 1/6th (healthcare) of the US economy, they’re going to pay off student debt, make college free for everyone, free/cheap universal child care, affordable housing for everyone, etc. We can all empathize with these problems but good grief how do you pay for all this s—t responsibly?
Oh, and (huge surprise) I see no plan to pay off existing US debt. Because paying off current debt – the responsible thing to do – isn’t a bribe voters are enticed by. They want cash in their pockets now!
Both Sanders and Warren have ‘plans’ that cost so much they admit traditional sources to pay for them (not counting debt which is what really will pay for most of it) aren’t enough to cover the costs. So now they’re going after wealth. Which isn’t, of course, a problem until their low-ball math doesn’t work out and they come after mine or yours.
I don’t care what Warren’s or Sander’s poll numbers are. When we get to the general election their crackpot schemes will get lots of sunlight they’re not getting now – progressive primary voters just love these notions, don’t worry the costs – and they’ll get absolutely slaughtered. Especially with Trump boasting about his great economy and how ‘socialist’ policies with strangle it with taxes.
Democrats need to come up with an electable candidate with ideas that will sell to a broad audience. It seems to me the Democrats are depending on the stink of Trump to get them over the top while selling dreams to their most progressive hardcore base. I don’t think that’ll work.
I have both Medicare and employer’s private insurance (long story, I’m on disability). To summarize, Medicare sucks. Not just a little. Medicare sucks donkey… ah, never mind. Both Sanders and Warren plan to force everyone on that pile of s—t. But, of course, they promise when they’re done it’ll be be blanket of sweet smelling roses, healthcare Nirvana. Not just Nirvana but cheap, cheap ‘what a deal’ Nirvana. It’s like listening to the shills on TV say “but wait, there’s more”.
Not only are they going to pay for 1/6th (healthcare) of the US economy, they’re going to pay off student debt, make college free for everyone, free/cheap universal child care, affordable housing for everyone, etc. We can all empathize with these problems but good grief how do you pay for all this s—t responsibly?
Oh, and (huge surprise) I see no plan to pay off existing US debt. Because paying off current debt – the responsible thing to do – isn’t a bribe voters are enticed by. They want cash in their pockets now!
Both Sanders and Warren have ‘plans’ that cost so much they admit traditional sources to pay for them (not counting debt which is what really will pay for most of it) aren’t enough to cover the costs. So now they’re going after wealth. Which isn’t, of course, a problem until their low-ball math doesn’t work out and they come after mine or yours.
I don’t care what Warren’s or Sander’s poll numbers are. When we get to the general election their crackpot schemes will get lots of sunlight they’re not getting now – progressive primary voters just love these notions, don’t worry the costs – and they’ll get absolutely slaughtered. Especially with Trump boasting about his great economy and how ‘socialist’ policies with strangle it with taxes.
Democrats need to come up with an electable candidate with ideas that will sell to a broad audience. It seems to me the Democrats are depending on the stink of Trump to get them over the top while selling dreams to their most progressive hardcore base. I don’t think that’ll work.
John McKee commented
2020-01-15 00:16:04 -0500
· Flag
We have to steer away from go-nowhere arguments. I can quite imagine Bernie privately opining that it would take a man to knock Trump off, but that would only be as a feeble attempt to put Elizabeth off competing with him, not because of any inherent sexism.
Bernie may have the most enthusiastic followers, but he also has the most who carry a grudge over his behaviour in 2016 and others who generally find him a little too far-out/unpredictable. With the highest second preferences, Elizabeth has Iowa in the bag. That should in turn give her a real boost in New Hampshire. After that, and with Biden running away with South Carolina, the primary process will probably narrow down to an extended Joe/Elizabeth centrist/progressive contest.
As long as every primary is seen as an opportunity to stick it to Trump and his criminal cabal, I’m happy for fate to take its course. To be honest, I think it will be Pence defending in November, but he’s fatally infected by his complicity.
Bernie may have the most enthusiastic followers, but he also has the most who carry a grudge over his behaviour in 2016 and others who generally find him a little too far-out/unpredictable. With the highest second preferences, Elizabeth has Iowa in the bag. That should in turn give her a real boost in New Hampshire. After that, and with Biden running away with South Carolina, the primary process will probably narrow down to an extended Joe/Elizabeth centrist/progressive contest.
As long as every primary is seen as an opportunity to stick it to Trump and his criminal cabal, I’m happy for fate to take its course. To be honest, I think it will be Pence defending in November, but he’s fatally infected by his complicity.
Ellen commented
2020-01-14 23:48:31 -0500
· Flag
It’s not about whether a woman can win, IMO, but about who can beat Trump. Given how Nancy Pelosi has magnificently bested Trump repeatedly, I actually think a woman can beat Trump more easily if she handles herself right. It’s about smarts and bad-assery, not sex!
Ellen commented
2020-01-14 23:44:29 -0500
· Flag
I also heard that part of what I missed was the Bernie/Warren “controversy.” As I just tweeted, I could not care less about who said what to whom… and I’m not an especially big Bernie fan.
John McKee commented
2020-01-14 23:28:47 -0500
· Flag
Lawrence hit the nail on the head last night, Ellen. It’s one of my personal hobbyhorses – plans for this and plans for that are all very well, but no president can dictate what Congress decides as long as the majority is not scared/bribed/blackmailed into doing so.
I thought Elizabeth was head and shoulders above the rest tonight, but I’d be over the moon if anyone on that stage prevails in November. Why is it that they cannot understand that the voting public want hopes, dreams and inspiration. They want a Kennedy or an Obama to enthuse and excite them, not some bureaucratic accounts clerk who can show them the arithmetic.
I thought Elizabeth was head and shoulders above the rest tonight, but I’d be over the moon if anyone on that stage prevails in November. Why is it that they cannot understand that the voting public want hopes, dreams and inspiration. They want a Kennedy or an Obama to enthuse and excite them, not some bureaucratic accounts clerk who can show them the arithmetic.
Ellen commented
2020-01-14 22:49:52 -0500
· Flag
I’ve been traveling for about a month (which is why posting has been light) and I got to the debate late. But when I turned it on, it was YET ANOTHER debate about Medicare for all. For chrissakes, why do we have to keep rehashing the minute differences in hypothetical programs that may or may not get through Congress? Was there any debate about how to implement it?
Lawrence O’Donnell had a good segment last night or the night before about the real question that should be asked. “Will you veto a plan that isn’t yours?” AND THEN DROP IT!!!!
Lawrence O’Donnell had a good segment last night or the night before about the real question that should be asked. “Will you veto a plan that isn’t yours?” AND THEN DROP IT!!!!