Monica Crowley, Fox News’ conspiracy-theory gal, predictably appeared on Hannity last night to offer her “insights” into the Fast and Furious investigation. And lo and behold – she saw a conspiracy! This was no botched operation but a deliberate effort by the Obama administration “set up as an assault on the Second Amendment.” Crowley, who also made a name for herself by buddying up to Richard Nixon, also agreed with Sean Hannity that this so-called scandal is “bigger than Watergate.”
Crowley said that the supposedly “botched operation” maybe wasn’t. "Maybe - and this is just speculation - but maybe what they are trying to hide here is the fact that this was all by design. ...Everything they do is by design and this operation was set up as an assault on the Second Amendment. In other words, flood the zone with guns, actually have some dead bodies - I don't think they intended American dead bodies - but then trace the guns back to the United States as an excuse to crack down on legal gun ownership."
As Rachel Maddow pointed out brilliantly last night, this perfectly echoes the NRA's conspiracy theory.
I’m glad to know you were critical of the Bush Admin for their unfortunate treatment of the people involved in the warrantless wiretapping, not to mention the attacks on the Wilsons. Good to know you stood up for them.
I did read your citations. That’s how I knew what they were. And that some were literally reprinting, word for word, what was in a Fox News article. As you did with the list of guys Fox News says were retaliated against. Since you did not answer this, I’ll accept that you understand you’ve conceded that point, as you did the truth about the killing of Agent Brian Terry.
The LA times article re Trevino notes his allegation of 150 deaths is unfounded, and has a critical comment from an ATF agent on the other side which says Trevino, the former AG now working as a lower level politician, Just has “a good political thing to say”.
I was trying to spare you any indignity of refuting all of your statements. You unfortunately left me no other option. I have read your opinions and the unfounded basis on which you made them. I don’t know how to help if you don’t want to hear the appropriate response.
2) I am always concerned about retaliation against whistleblowers but regardless of who is in office at any given time the FedGov seems to do a pretty good job of ignoring their own rules and trashing such people.
3) I’m done now, because you still aren’t bothering to read what I write nor check my cites. One last time:
In addition the âright wingersâ cited the LA Times quoting, wait for it . . . Mexican Congressman Humberto Benitez Trevino, who heads the justice committee in the Chamber of Deputies.
Let’s address your response.
Your citation of Michelle Malkin’s right wing blog about Darrell Issa saying that 200 people in Mexico died as a result of F&F does not constitute you finding a real journalist to corroborate Issa’s self-serving claims. You then link to a CNN Mexico post that says that Issa is claiming this. You provide no proof that 200 people were killed other than Darrell Issa’s opinion about it. He isn’t just a US Congresssman. He’s the guy who’s been on a witch hunt against this administration and this AG since the GOP got the majority in the House. This is the most significant political position he’s ever or will ever hold, given that his attempt to get himself the CA governorship by orchestrating the recall of Gray Davis failed when Arnold Schwarzenegger stole his thunder. So Issa is really trying to maximize his moment in the sun, whether he has any basis or not. He is not, by himself, a reliable source, particularly given his history.
As for your citations and notes on whistleblowers, almost all of your material, including your list of the guys starting with “Agent Larry Alt…” comes verbatim from a Fox News article. In searching for impartial sources for material on these guys, we find that there’s nobody else saying that the agents were specifically attacked because of their testimony. There are mentions of their integrity being questioned, but nothing saying that all or any of them were ruined for testifying.
The exception is John Dodson. In his case, the Jusice Dept IG compelled Dennis Burke to resign for leaking a memo about Dodson to a reporter. (the memo, by the way, didn’t endanger or harm anyone. It simply shows that Dodson was being hypocritical in his loud comments re F&F when he was doing the same thing re AKs.). So I’d say you’re right that Dodson was retaliated against by Dennis Burke. And what do you know? The system at Justice worked. The IG made Burke resign. Not Darrell Issa, who simply tried to exploit the situation for his own benefit. As for the rest of what has happened with Dodson, we’re back in the land of “Fox says…”. I have no idea how Dodson conducted himself, but the only info about his supposed hardships comes from Fox or right wing bloggers who despise this AG. By the way, were you concerned about the Bush Admin whistleblowers re the NSA scandal, or is it only when someone alleges retaliation by a Dem admin that you feel it matters?
And I’m not sure why you’re belaboring the Brian Terry matter, when you’re already admitting that no link has been established between the two F&F AKs at that crime scene, and the bullet that killed Terry. You cite the indictment of Manuel Osoro-Arellanes for his involvement in the Terry shootout, but you neglect to mention some key information. According to the FBI, “His co-conspirators fled, including the gunman suspected of firing the fatal shot, fled and are being sought in connection to the murder.”. You also forgot to mention that there was a third AK in the shootout, and not necessarily a F&F weapon. It disappeared with the gunman who the FBI believes killed Terry when he fled the scene. so once again, we’re back where we started – with a F&F gun that did not kill Brian Terry and is irrelevant to your case.
So I do hope you’ll find the time to retract those unfortunate statements and try to walk some of this back.
Well Kevin if you are not even going to look at the evidence I’m providing I won’t bother you any more.
To wit, you say: “As for those 200 supposed deaths in Mexico, youâre not seriously referring me to a blog created by Michelle Malkin, are you? How about a real news source? The right wingers at Hot Air were citing, wait for itâ¦Darrell Issa! Please provide something more substantial. Thanks.”
Yes I did refer you to that blog, which quoted a U.S. Congressman (whose numbers are supported by another collection of those crazy right-wing nut-jobs CNN Mexico (http://mexico.cnn.com/nacional/2011/10/28/200-mexicanos-murieron-por-armas-de-rapido-y-furioso-congresista-de-eu)).
In addition the “right wingers” cited the LA Times quoting, wait for it . . . Mexican Congressman Humberto Benitez Trevino, who heads the justice committee in the Chamber of Deputies.
Whistle-blowers being “punished”: John Dodson: http://www.examiner.com/article/more-chicanery-uncovered-atf-retaliation-against-whistleblowers and if you don’t want to believe a Conservative Examiner, how about NPR:
Or there’s No Lawyers – Only Guns and Money (http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/11/no-retaliation-against-whistleblowers.html) who points us to William Lajeunesse (but he’s Fox so you probably won’t believe him):
The managers either got promotions or supposedly lateral transfers with paid moving expenses plus the cost of living bonus that comes with being assigned to Washington, DC and headquarters.
Agent Larry Alt took a transfer to Florida and has unresolved retaliation claims against the ATF.
Agent Pete Forcelli was demoted to a desk job. Forcelli is a respected investigator, with years as a detective with the New York City Police Department. He has requested an internal investigation to address the retaliation against him.
Agent James Casa also took a transfer to Florida.
Agent Carlos Canino, once the deputy attache in Mexico City, was moved to Tucson.
Agent Jose Wall, formerly assigned to Tijuana, was moved to Phoenix.
Agent Darren Gil, formerly the attache to Mexico, retired.
Oh and one more thing: No I don’t think that we can “remove” the Terry case from the issue, given that
1) Manuel Osorio Arellanes was indicted (http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kgun/KGUN/OsorioArellanoIndictment.pdf) for the murder of Agent Terry and
2) was also indicted for using a firearm (“a 7.62×39mm Romanian assault rifle, Model GP WASR-10/63, bearing serial number 1971CZ3775”) in the assault on Officer Terry and
3) said firearm was, according to the ATF e-mail found on p. 46 of this report (http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ATF_Report.pdf) a F&F gun.
The executive privilege, being used for the first time by this president, is meant to finally stop all the fishing expeditions after over a year of badgering by Darrell Issa. They’re not hiding anything. They’re trying to allow the Justice Department do their job without having to spend half their time continually responding to overreaching document demands from a congressman who’s trying to make himself sound important during an election year. Enough is enough. This isn’t a criminal matter – it’s a settled issue that Issa wants to puff up.
Please specify what you mean by blatant disregard for the law and constitutional restraints. Do you mean the way that Eric Holder has repeatedly gone before a hostile GOP house panel to be berated and attacked? Or the way Obama hasn’t used this measure a single time until now?
Maybe you’re thinking about when they deliberately exposed an intelligence agent to get political payback on a whistleblower. Or maybe you’re thinking about when they circumvented Congress by selling weapons to Iran and funneled the proceeds to Contra forces. Oh, wait. Those were real criminal situations and you don’t want to talk about real criminality.
“Anti-white racist scumbag”? “Amoral anti-constitutionist jerk”? Where do you get that much hatred and why do you think it’s appropriate to say offensive things like that anywhere?
If they are not culpable, then they have nothing to hide, right? They say they aren’t culpable, so why are they hiding information?
Given this administration’s blatant disregard for the law and constitutional restraints, the theory that Crowley regurgitates is not that far a stretch.
As a matter of fact, knowing what an anti-white racist scumbag Holder is, and what an amoral anti-constitutional jerk the president is, the theory makes more sense than not.
The US wanted gun violence in Mexico to censor guns in the US snicker
They ran joint with Mexican authorities to recover the weapons so they could build a case for US gun censorship pfft
The Wide Receiver guns never killed anyone… hahaha hahahaha hahahaha (holds sides)
The whole thing about differences between F&F and Wide Receiver- snort HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA!
Jesus Christ, that was funny.
The names William Newell and William Hoover ring a bell there, boy? Let’s start with them, not the least of which being how they just sat there with his thumb up his ass watching the trade-offs that took place still on US soil and made absolutely no effort to intercept the weapons- or arrange to have them intercepted.
We can start with that they were the two dipshits in charge of that particular clusterfuck, and that no one in Hard Right Arizona felt the least bit of need to have them removed from their respective offices, so both of the botched runs have them in common.
Then we can move on to the part where the Mexican Government didn’t do shit to find the buyers after they crossed, and did the same “We weren’t told” line they gave for Fast & Furious in 2009.
After that, how about we move on to that the Republicans:
A) Didn’t give two jack shits about rectifying the situation
B) Made no effort to investigate it
C) Halted what investigations were made
D) Forbade efforts to retrieve the weapons, and
D) Started bitching like a Catholic schoolgirl on her period about the 2009-2010 investigations.
E) Bitched even worse than that when it turned up that people like Newell and Hoover barely got a slap on the wrist under Bush.
Hey, didn’t this F&F bullshit start around the time the Wide Receiver probe started putting people in prison? Man, that’s soooo interesting.
Putting aside that you clearly got your “facts” from Planet Fox, Bruce… nobody’s claiming Fast & Furious would have been a perfect operation even if it did go as planned. But let’s look at the difference:
The right didn’t give a shit about accountability when they did it- they only gave a shit when it was the left in that position. Oh, and guess we could count that the left tried to minimize the damage while the right just said “Oh, well- spilled milk and all” on theirs… but the concept of people accounting for their mistakes might make your head explode.
Re the Zapata killing, you’re citing a right wing blog that displays an offensive graphic about Holder. How am I to take that as serious? Do you have ballistics evidence to show any connection to F&F? Other than right wingers trying to add more bodies to the pile, I haven’t seen anyone making a serious case that Zapata’s death is relevant to this matter. As for Issa fishing in this area, I’m sure he is. But if Justice is investigating, and you can be sure they are, then Issa is once again meddling into an unrelated area just to fish for more reasons to demand docs from Holder.
As for those 200 supposed deaths in Mexico, you’re not seriously referring me to a blog created by Michelle Malkin, are you? How about a real news source? The right wingers at Hot Air were citing, wait for it…Darrell Issa! Please provide something more substantial. Thanks.
Pleases also cite specific examples of the “whistleblowers” who were “punished” for coming forward about this. Are you sure these were not people who were grinding political axes or were let go for other reasons. You’re throwing around some pretty serious accusations, so it would help to back them up.
I’m sorry you’re not understanding this, but it’s evident that this entire matter has been a witch hunt for some time. Darrell Issa isn’t trying to do oversight work when he subpoenas thousands upon thousands of documents without knowing what he’s looking for, and then changes up his requests and demands instant responses from Justice. Maybe we could have a few Justice staffers working solely for Darrell Issa who could spend their days finding and copying documents. And if a few ongoing investigations are compromised, that’ll just be collateral damage, right?
The real purpose of Issa’s work is to get revenge for Alberto Gonzales and Scooter Libby, and to hide it behind a veneer of moral outrage. Personally, I’d prefer if he just came out and did it directly rather than playing all these games.
This isn’t Gonzales, where serious imprprieties happened and the AG was forced to resign. This isn’t the Wilson/Plame matter where criminal acts were committed and the investigation was criminally obstructed. This isn’t Iran/Contra, where criminal acts were committed and then covered up and pardoned. This isn’t the Clinton witch hunt which covered every ground imaginable looking for a scandal and resulted in an impeachment over a really petty matter. This is Darrell Issa, still in search of power and attention since he failed in his attempt to get himself the California governorship when he orchestrated the recall of Gray Davis. Darrell Issa, who knows this is the highest office he will ever hold and wants to puff himself up as much as he can. And he knows that even if there’s a floor vote on this, it will go down party lines and not accomplish anything else.
Keep in mind that Holder actually has been cooperating. And no, he did not commit perjury. He has repeatedly and patiently appeared in Congress before hostile GOP politicians who regularly attack him and demand that he resign, as they have practically since he took office.
As for bloodshed, cover-ups and perjury, I’d point you to real instances of criminal activity like the Wilson/Plame matter and Iran/Contra. This is a matter of a bad bipartisan Justice policy that went through two presidents, didn’t work, and was stopped. And it’s a matter of a determined and angry GOP congressman who is doing something pretty shameful here.
Finally, I do take issue with your other statements, particularly the ridiculous right wing talking point about the 2nd Amendment. But I was trying to be brief. In a target rich environment, I thought I would just go for the easiest stuff for you to correct first.
And I don’t know that you’re a plant, potted or otherwise. But you’re citing right wing talking points as though they were facts. So if you’re left wing, this is a heck of a way to demonstrate it…
As for the Jaime Zapata killing I never said that F&F guns were used to kill him, but two of the guns found at the scene had come from Texas, bought by straw-buyers the ATF had had surveillance on for months. One of the sets of documents the House Oversight Committee is looking for which DoJ has not turned over is information on gunwalking taking place in Texas (i.e. not under the auspices of F&F which was an AZ operation). In addition, 6 months before his death, Agent Zapata had taken part in an interdiction of some 80 weapons between Phoenix and San Antonio, approximately 50 of which were F&F guns. Again, linked not necessarily used (as per Mike V. the guy who broke F&F http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2012/06/sipsey-street-exclusive-investigators.html).
And really, I don’t need to stand on anything to have the moral high ground over US Gov’t agencies which, in violation of federal law (http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2011/07/did_fast_furiou.php) and possibly at least one international treaty, allowed hundreds of weapons to cross the border with the stated purpose of retrieving them from crime scenes in Mexico (which I still haven’t figured out how it would net them any “big fish”). But if I did need a platform, the two hundred or more Mexican dead would suffice I suppose (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/20/report-at-least-200-murders-in-mexico-now-linked-to-fast-furious-weapons/).
Finally no I don’t think it is political discussion or mere potshots being taken at the AG “hiding behind the bodies” of US LEOs, I think it started as a legitimate investigation of actions of questionable legality (see above about treaties and federal laws) by a Congressional committee which has pretty explicit jurisdiction (see their mission statement at http://oversight.house.gov/about-the-watchdogs/). The department being investigated then lied in a letter which was later “withdrawn”, promoted supervisors who had been intimately involved and (again, in violation of Federal law) punished whistle-blowers who had originally come forward with the information.
So, if anyone has evidence that similar bloodshed, perjury and cover-ups resulted from Wide Receiver I’d be happy to look at it.
P.S. Joseph: Why do you refer to me as 1) right-wing and 2) a “plant”?
And you do know that all of this is really a political discussion over the GOP trying to throw more potshots at Eric Holder while hiding behind the bodies of US law enforcement, right?
Maybe you might want to walk a bit of that back and get your own “facts” straight.
To refute your theory: No, F&F was not the gov’t selling guns to Mexico, it was letting known straw-buyers to buy large numbers of guns in border-state gun shops and smuggle them, unimpeded, into Mexico to suppply the drug cartels.
First of all, they wanted the problems in Mexico so they could blame our “lax” gun laws and (among other things) use the large number of smuggled guns to press for “renewal” of the Clinton AWB (I say “renewal” because it was nothing of the sort, it was a far stricter proposal).
Second: In our universe the administration sent straw-bought guns to Mexico (coals to Newcastle, so to speak) to take advantage of the existing “shit storm”. When US guns started showing up at Mexican crime scenes they could use this as an excuse to press for more restrictions.
Third: They weren’t walking to guns to AZ, they were buying them there and allowing them to be walked into Mexico.
Finally there was a crucial difference between Wide Receiver and F&F: In WR the Mexican authorities were told when, where and in what vehicle the guns were crossing. In F&F the Mexican LEOs were deliberately and explicitly left out of the loop.
In addition, under Bush none of the WR guns were 1) used to kill a Border Agent (Brian Terry) 2) Linked with the killing of an ICE agent (Jaime Zapata) 3) used in the kidnapping/torture/murder of the Mexican AG’s brother and 4) linked to the deaths of hundreds of Mexican citizens.
So, Aria, kindly get your facts straight or shut your blasted mouth.
Now let’s explain why I can still say this is the stupidest goddamn thing I ever heard in my life with a straight face, even after I just got done reading heirsinhopes posts on the other F&F thread:
First of all, if someone wants to create a problem to politicize, they create in the area where they want it politicized. If the mayor of LA wants to create an arson epidemic, he doesn’t send the fucking arsonist to Tiajuana, he hands him a gas can and a zippo with a card that says “have fun.” Maybe not that exact scenario, but we are talking about LA here.
Second of all, in what universe other than the one Fox News lives in is it a good idea to create a shit storm of gun violence, then tell everyone caught in it to hand over their means of defense during an election year? If anything, people who deliberately create outbreaks of gun violence are doing it to sell MORE guns, because guess where everyone’s going?! For that matter, what kind of deal did they have with the drug lords to supposedly let them shoot up the southwest, and how’d they plan to make them stop once they politicized it to disarm the whole damn country?
Third, regarding the whole “Maybe not American bodies” thing… just how stupid are you, Crowley? It’s a cartel, read: They’re in every freakin’ country the competition hasn’t killed the shit out of them in yet. If they were walking guns to the cartel in Arizona,the cartel’s in America, sweetheart. So, if anything, the fact that the US death count doesn’t read like the 12 Days of O Holy Hell shows that what stayed in America is/was pretty subdued.
Yeah, I’m in a bad mood- with right wing stupidity over this topic. Seriously, and I say this to the apologists from the bottom of my heart: Come up with something better than conspiracy theories and lies about how the operations done under Bush (such as Wide Receiver) had no complications/legal hang-ups or shut your damn mouths.
Next Up: How Obama controlled the planes on 9/11.