File under “Now he tells us.”
Former Vice President Mike Pence will likely be the star witness of any trial related to the latest criminal charges against Donald Trump, his attempts to steal the 2020 election.
It's hard to know why but Pence has suddenly been willing to speak out more forcefully against his former boss than he has previously. Whether it’s because 2024 presidential candidate Mike Pence is significantly behind his former boss in the primary campaign, with Trump holding a commanding lead over the entire pack; or whether it’s because the latest indictment made Pence feel emboldened; or whether it’s because Pence knows his testimony will be key; or maybe something else altogether – I couldn’t help but think how much good Pence could have done if only he had spoken out sooner.
In any event, just like Pence was the unexpected hero of January 6th, 2021, when he arguably saved democracy by refusing to give in to pressure to stall the certification of the presidential election, he will likely be key to any Trump conviction on the election case. In my last post (which Brian wrote most of), I noted that the latest indictment alleged that Trump attacked Pence as “too honest” because he opposed a lawsuit saying he had the authority to refuse to certify the election results. There’s almost no doubt that anecdote came from Pence.
Nevertheless, Pence is still Pence.
But here’s what he told Fox News’ Martha MacCallum in a Tuesday interview that aired yesterday:
PENCE: [O]n January 20th, 2017, I took an oath to support and defend the constitution. It's a promise I made to the American people, but it also ended with a prayer, so help me God. And all four years all the way up to that fateful day on January 6, I kept my promise that I made to Almighty God and to the American people. And I think -- I think yesterday's indictment is -- will stand either on its own merits or it will fall.
I can't really speak to the legal arguments behind it, but I think the American people deserve to know that on that day, the president asked me to choose between him and the constitution, and I chose the constitution. And I always will. And I want the American people to know as I stand for the Republican nomination for president of the United States that I'll keep faith with the constitution.
And I do believe that while there has been weaponization at the Justice Department, and we certainly lived through it through the Trump-Pence years, that at the end of the day history will hold Donald Trump accountable for his reckless words and actions on that day. And I'll always stand by the truth of that and make sure the American people know why I did what I did, Martha.
I mean, I had no right to overturn the election. And despite the fact that President Trump has continued to insist that over the last 2-1/2 years, I want people to know that I stood strong on the constitution that day, by God's grace, and I always will.
MacCallum followed up with an important question. It led to an important answer that could also be key to any Trump conviction.
MACCALLUM: You know, you may have heard [Trump's] attorneys last night saying that this is a free speech, discussion. That's all it was, and that all they asked you to do was to just take a pause that day.
John Eastman emailed your legal counsel, stating, "I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation of the Electoral Count Act and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislators to finish their investigations," and a full forensic audit of what he called, "the massive amount of illegal activity that has occurred here."
They are saying all you needed to do was just take a pause. What do you say to that?
PENCE: I say that's completely false. And it's contrary to American history, to our Constitution and to the laws of this country. And I never considered that, Martha.
…
But let's be clear on this point, it wasn't just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes to which would have resulted in the issue being turned over to the House of Representatives, and literally, chaos would have ensued.
Pence went on to say that he had hoped it would not come to this point.” Not surprisingly, MacCallum never mentioned that if Pence had come forward sooner, it may not have.
Unlike the MAGA faithful (not the constitution faithful) rushing to acquit Trump before trial, and making Biden and the DOJ the real villains, Pence said the question of whether or not Trump committed a crime should be left to the legal process. Yes, it's milquetoasty but it's also the right answer.
PENCE: I don't know. I mean, honestly, I don't know the full case in chief that the government has. And, you know, I think I've said on your network many times that, you know, I don't know if taking bad advice from lawyers is a crime.
But, you know, I would leave that legal process, and, frankly, the profound issues about the First Amendment to -- you know, to the courts to sort that out.
But look, I think it's important that the American people know what happened in the days before January 6th. President Trump demanded that I use my authority as vice president presiding over the count of the Electoral College to essentially overturn the election, by returning or literally rejecting votes.
I had no authority to do that. And, frankly, Martha, it seems to me that some of the argument that I hear coming between the lines from his lawyers is something of a concession that he may have gotten bad advice. That he was just taking advice from his attorneys.
But look, you know, I know I did the right thing that day. I'll always stand by it. It was a tragic day. But again, by God's grace, with my family at my side, with my key advisors at our side, and with the courageous work of law enforcement at the Capitol, we quelled the violence. We reconvened the Congress and completed our work.
The only job the Constitution gives the vice president of the United States in that role is to preside over a joint session of Congress, where the Electoral College votes that are certified by the states are opened and counted.
With Republican authoritarianism pounding away at democracy and long-held rights, I’ll appreciate allies of the U.S. Constitution when and where I find them. But who knows? If Pence had spoken up about Trump's efforts to subvert the constitution before the 2020 election, during the first impeachment trial, say, maybe Pence could have been president and we could have avoided this most recent criminal case after all.
You can watch a foretaste of what will likely be Pence’s powerful testimony against Trump below, from the August 2, 2023 The Story with Martha MacCallum.
On another topic, have you noticed that CNN hosts and journalists are challenging the right-wing narrative with a lot more gumption than before the CEO (forget his name) was fired? They’ve been a lot more diligent in reminding viewers of details that had almost always been overlooked. Encouraging.