Jon Robert : That is very true. I personally know some people who went on Springer,and they definetly made up and werer coached by Springer’s staff. Those people are on facebook as well,and I unfriended one because she so created for her family a stigma in the local community,all for a few bucks. And it wasn’t even a lot of money. You could work a week for what they made at any gas station.

I also agree with you on how the Walker camp has played all this. And with Aria. There’s a mover behind the scenes who is very good at what he/she does when it comes to propaganda.

Walker is an expert manipulator just like Jerry Springer. Walker gets the crowd all wound up with his BS just like Springer’s BS

I had sex with 300 men by the age of 20 is a fabricated BS story for Springer just as Walkers union boogieman BS is a fabricated lie for Walker. Walker depends on fools and simpletons to buy his big bad union boogieman shtick.

Just like the stupid crowd on the jerry Springer show the stupid people in Wisconsin are cheering. Walker! Walker! Walker!

The people in this state are so stupid that Walker deceives them at will. Like his claim of being so concerned about vets getting licensing.

What kind of job getting licensure has Walker allowed the vets to transfer from military training to civilian via state law? TATTOOING AND BODY PIERCING! Read it
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/120

The military has never trained anyone in tattooing and body piercing but the idiots in the crowd cheer. Walker! Walker! Walker!

I agree that the only concession Walker has made is that he didn’t sell his behavior well enough to the public before he did it. But I don’t see that as either him or Kleefisch being particularly apologetic or even chastened much. Instead, they’re blaming the voters of Wisconsin for somehow not understanding what they were up to. Kleefisch in particular has come across as quite smug in the most recent interviews.

I also agree that even if they survive the recall, the damage to their political careers (and to this movement to attack public employee unions) will be considerable. It’s not likely that Walker will get back into office for another term after this – voters who don’t want to deal with the recall will take care of the matter in the next scheduled Governor election.

And that will mark the end of Walker’s political career. It’s pretty clear that he fancied himself another Rick Perry – a younger, photogenic GOP governor with aspirations toward higher office than just the governorship of one state. Had this attack worked, Walker would have fast-tracked himself to the top of the heap. Instead, he’ll become another occasional commentator on Fox News, and probably one of the talking heads that pops up on Hannity’s panel.

Ellen, I talked to a few friends who live in Wisconsin currently, and they say that, if walker wins… it’ll be more PR than anything else.

As pointed out in a post that got swept in the cleaning, around the time the recall was proposed, between 70-76% of the state (depending on who you ask) wanted him gone. Like ASAP. The way Walker kept exposing himself, the margin of people considering voting him out grew.

But Walker and his backers went all out on his image rehab, whoever’s coordinating it is a true master of manipulation. I mean, Karl Rove could take lessons from them good. But, even then… Walker hurt a lot of people on a very deep and personal level, even something like this shouldn’t work on them. But it is, and that has me kinda not feeling sorry for them in the least.

But, if it’s any consolation, Walker is the only one who seems to be enjoying this. I don’t think his handlers care about anyone else, Wisconsin’s listed as pretty likely to vote almost straight blue on most voting maps.

As for Walker and Kleefisch, they are frequent guests on Fox, especially on On The Record and especially in the run up to the recall. It seems to me they have been somewhat chastened by what has happened. Walker and Kleefisch were originally defiant during the demonstrations and now they readily admit having made mistakes.

But what they admit to is having made a mistake in the process – not garnering enough support before they pushed through their legislation. Now maybe that’s code for bringing more people to the table but I took ti for “we’d do it all over again but manage the politics better.”

But I’m not so sure that winning the recall will be that much of a victory for them. Sure, they’ll claim it shows the unions have no clout but how much clout will the two of them have after this? Something tells me it’s their political capital – not the unions – that has been the most diminished in the process. And I’m not so sure that’s not the most important outcome.

Folks,
I love vigorous debate but making it personal does nothing for anyone or anyone’s argument – other than to make more work for a moderator who will delete those comments.

Thanks!
Ellen

I watched the debate last night. Walkere did his usual "I saw a person named X in the town of X and they told me that they are so happy tyhat someone finally (Walker peddling his shtick that preys on the emotions of the people who think he will put a nickle in their pocket)

When the peasants are all finally put back in their place. The billionairs have more billions and all the laws have been changed so the peasants have no recourse. Then and only then will the dopes that helped Hilter move the masses to the gas chambers finally say “oh yeah I guess you were right. What have I done”

A prominent business leader from state Sen. Rob Cowles’ district was stunned when the veteran lawmaker explained why he voted in favor of Gov. Scott Walker’s controversial budget-repair plan. Cowles had contacted the business leader earlier this year to ask for the person’s support in his upcoming recall election.

“He said, ‘I didn’t like this (bill) either.
I didn’t like being put in this position.
I didn’t like anything about the way it was done,’” the business leader quoted Cowles as saying. "
‘But the governor’s office told us if we didn’t give them our support, they would run a tea party candidate against us.’"

http://www.jsonline.com/​watchdog/noquarter/​125323448.html

Walker is a bully determined to destroy the working man’s position in our culture and return us to the level of serfs and peasants.

As foir the rest,it’s going to play out however the money falls. Walker’s got a ton of financial backing and some very,VERY deep pockets to work with. He won’t metaphorically die in this recall,but he’ll definetly not escape with all his skin intact.

The bad part about it is,the fools who vote to re-elect this charlatan will be the ones to suffer. But it’ll be well deserved suffrage,because they were too stupid to see the fox in the henhouse and do anything about it.

Kevin more good points as usual. Since Barret was the official candidate the polls released have shown a constant growth in favor of Walker. At the start it was a dead heat which was moved to a 3 point, then 5,6 and now 8 points. The only ones who dispute those polls are those within the Democratic campaign for Barret who says the polls they do show it as a dead heat but nobody has seen those numbers. Aisle crossing is exactly what i was going for and exactly what we need when this is resolved. I can’t honestly say that with out some form of cross aisle peacemaking that even after this is all over people will go back to normal and put this all behind them.

Social security is a point where i am deeply worried because even if it is around for say 50yrs i still will not be there when the youngest generation will need it. I can tell you that i just turned 25 this month and am not so sure that come retirement age that there will be a system there that will be able to support me and my generation. Now hopefully things turn out as you suggest in which case ok 80% is more than reasonable and with life savings you should be able to make it but again that is providing it all works out.

Your ideas on healthcare don’t seem that much different from my own surprisingly. The first solution we both agree is do able but not likely and we both agree the second option would put most people over the limit. Now hopefully we can meet in the middle or show signs that we are moving to the first idea but hey as long as we don’t go the other way i guess that is good enough for me.

Joshua, I agree with you that Scott Walker is consistently ahead in the polls. You’re of course correct about the WSJ poll. But what is the aggregate of the polls? Do they all show him 8 points up, or do some show him down at 3, others at 6, and one at 8? From what I can see, the polls haven’t been showing any significant changes in months in spite of a massive amount of money being brought in by both GOP and Dem supporters. And yes, they do show Walker ahead enough that he may well keep his office in two weeks. But not by a landslide or even by a margin of comfort.

This is why I think he needs to do something to address the whole state and not just his backers, exactly as you point out. I don’t know what Barrett can do in this, but if Walker wants him to be part of an attempt to be a cross-aisles peacemaking, that would probably be a good idea.

Regarding the healthcare/pension issue, I think I should point out that while we are regularly told that Social Security is “doomed” or “bankrupt” or “going over the cliff”, the fact is that Social Security will be solvent for at least another 25 years, after which it is projected to still be able to pay up to 80% of scheduled benefits without making any changes to the existing setup. And that situation assumes something like 1% growth every year for the next 25 years, which would mean that we’d been in something close to a depression for a heck of a long time. If we want to fix the situation with Social Security, we can simply do what a president about 30 years ago did – adjust the payroll tax in a minute fashion. That president was Reagan, and what he did insured SS solvency for future decades.
I do think we can afford single payer healthcare, but the country will not be ready to embrace this idea until the costs of healthcare rise to the breaking point for everyone. So far, we’ve been able to keep that wolf at bay. But it won’t last forever, and eventually the insurance companies will have to let go of that idea and just cover the many other areas they already handle. (They won’t go out of business – they’ll just lose the healthcare portion of it.)

As for the idea of everyone taking care of their own pension and healthcare costs individually, I must differ there. I believe that this would be incredibly expensive for most people – to the tune of several hundred dollars a month over and above their current costs of rent, utilities, food, etc. The wealthier among us could afford this – the less wealthy would wind up going to the ER as many uninsured do today. And then we all pay higher hospital costs, which would totally undo the point of such an approach. Further, if we were to abandon the idea of Social Security, you’d have exactly the scenario we had in the Great Depression where people were completely broke at the time of retirement even after working their whole lives and saving – since the banks went under, they lost everything and the result wasn’t pretty. Hence, social security for everyone. And by the same line of thought, it’s a darn good thing we did NOT do what George W. Bush was suggesting in 2004 of switching Social Security for private investment accounts – if we’d done that, the mess of 2008 would have been many factors worse.

Anyways Kevin you do make good points and i can say at least go back and forth with you has not resorted to name calling so thank you.

I would like to start with the polls if i may. according to the wall street journal the lead is now at 8 points for Walker http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304707604577426322941410102.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

The reason i mention the decline is simply this, if Barret and his supporters had the same momentum as they did back when this started there is no way Walker would be showing such strong numbers. I again am not arguing money and i don’t deny Walker has brought in a lot of out of state money but the Dems have brought a lot of their own.

As for pensions and healthcare i see two solutions to the problem but both seem equally as unlikely. The first would be as you say a single payer system where all people are covered regardless of if you belong to a union or not. Honestly that would be the most fair but seeing as how social security is bombing out i am doubtful we could have a system like that that would work. The second would be if we went in the opposite direction and everyone pays their own way for health,pension etc. etc. Now this of course would make it harder and probably would cost more but at least we would all be equal that way.

I agree partially with the last point you make. While i feel once this is over Walker should come out and try to mend the situation i would also expect to see the same from Barret when this is all over. Simply having Walker come out and apologize will do nothing for those who have been on his side since day 1 so this way at least everyone will get some form of apology.

Interesting post, Joshua. Allow me to respond.

I’m not sure who you are referring to as “you guys.” I live in California and I’m not interfering in how Wisconsin voters determine their future. This is why I ignored Walker’s request that I give him money with some bemusement.

I’m glad that you remember that over 900,000 registered Wisconsin voters signed the recall petitions for something to be done about Scott Walker. I see no sign that their movement has dissolved, as you put it. I do see indications that Walker has brought in 25 times more money than they have to fight them rather than listen to them.

Walker is indeed ahead in the polls, in the single digits consistently. He certainly isn’t pulling ahead by any strong number, unless you’re only looking at a poll skewed to favor him. He may well keep his office, but he’ll be seriously damaged by this entire affair. I’m sure you’d like to see the matter called off before it can do more damage but the wheels are already turning. Further, repeatedly bringing up the cost of the recall is a right wing talking point that ignores that EVERY election costs taxpayer money. It is part of our system of governance and voting. We all agree to be part of this as part of this society. If you’re saying, you don’t want to pay for this particular recall, then people who disagree with you could tell you various sectors of government they would rather not support. Or are you saying that there should be no recalls? Because GOP pundits in California were overjoyed at the 2003 Recall and cheered on the radio when Gray Davis was knocked out of office. Are you repudiating that?

I’m curious what polls you believe show union members in strong support of Scott Walker. Certainly there are some union members who do agree with and support him. But I’d be very surprised to see consistent polling across the board in Wisconsin that shows a majority of union members supporting a political operative who viciously attacked them in public and then insulted them while doing so.

The idea of making the state employee unions rejustify their existence every year is a deliberately onerous step designed to take advantage of the fact that most people don’t pay attention to that stuff. Giving them extra boxes on their timecards and extra tax materials and forms just to mess with the unions is a clear attempt to force the unions to spend a lot of time and money just to tell people about this – hence defending their own existence rather than actually working to protect their workers. And that’s part of the point. If Walker had his way with this, the unions would lose more and more members and funds until they simply ceased to exist. Which would coincidentally help the GOP as they would benefit from not having any union support for their Dem opponents, while the GOP could freely draw on unlimited corporate funds. Had Walker pulled this off, he’d be on a fast track to a White House run for the GOP as a miracle worker. Instead, he’s fighting for his own job and will face a serious problem in trying to be reelected even if he survives this situation.

You are correct that I am a union member, but not of a public employee union and obviously not in Wisconsin. I always find it interesting when the response to union rights is to attack the fact that unions protect the health and pension plans of their members, as though people should not have those things unless they operate their own businesses. Now, if you’re arguing that we should instead have a single payer healthcare system and that there should be a guaranteed retirement system like Social Security, than we can discuss that. But I think you’re arguing the former argument instead, which is truly unfortunate. And while we’re on the subject of state employee health and pension plans, let’s remember that your state employee unions agreed to change the terms of those things to help the state out of its budgetary problems. Walker ignored this and took what may have been a fatal political step for himself and his supporters.

I’m not asking for Scott Walker and Rebecca Kleefisch to “fade away”, but yes, they do need to acknowledge that they are not just the governor/lt governor of the people they like. They are the public officials over the whole state of Wisconsin, including the nearly 1 million voters who petitioned to have them removed. Simply telling those voters that they’re wasting taxpayer resources, or dismissing their concerns in a smug tone will not erase the issues these voters have. Walker and Kleefisch need to learn their lesson and humbly acknowledge that they are public servants – not just of some business owners and wealthy taxpayers who don’t want state employee unions in their state, but of the whole state. If Walker and Kleefisch are unable or unwilling to do this, then they really do need to think about whether they should be in public service. And if they continue behaving the way they currently are, they are only increasing the likelihood that they will actually fade away within another election cycle or two. Not because I want them to – my intentions are irrelevant, but because they will have ignored a massive section of their own constituents.

Politics is the art of compromise. Walker could have had this if he had left it when the state employee unions agreed to the terms he demanded of them. When he then tried to take the kill shot as well, he revealed that he wasn’t interested in either the compromise or even the financial issues you say are the core here.

“we have to support ourselves and pay our own healthcare/retirement packages that we should also pay for yours."

I will use the same who gives a blank about what you think tone as Scott Walker:

This kind of comment reveals the complete idiocy of those making such comments i.e. the Walker supporters. The complete mindless idiots making such statements are saying:

I want all of my societal problems taken away from me and to be handled by the poverty stricken servants that I shall lord over.
I want the;
Molesters
Murderers
Criminally insane
Roads
Sewage
Drinking water
Military
Baby sitters of my children oops I mean teachers
Protection from fire and disaster
etc etc

Taken care of for me by my servants that I shall also not have to pay for. If I should be forced to pay for some of it I demand that these lowly servants shall not receive the same things I expect such as health care etc. They are my serfs and servants after all.

I am a lord and all others are my servants and do not deserve my money to pay for any of this.

I am not questiong where the money is coming from as both sides have taken from out of state and honestly that doesn’t bother me at all. If your going to let Ads,mailings and calls sway you then clearly you were never ready to support that candidate anyways is the way i look at it. Yes there was a lot of support when this began, you guys got 900k signatures, but that has since dissolved once people started looking at reports of schools showing growth, Falk pledging full union support and even the reason why this recall started in the first place being changed every other week. The fact is now however the majority has put it’s backing behind Walker, he hasn’t been behind in a single poll since February when they were speculating a Barret run, and this recall had exceeded 15 million dollars which is going to be left to taxpayers to cover. I think it is time to look at the polls make an honest decision and call it off, why go another 2 weeks adding more cost to the taxpayers when you fall further behind in each poll? You keep bringing up unions but if you look at the polls they have surveyed union members and even they would rather support Walker than Barret even after the limiting of CB that has to say something. I don’t think it is at all unfair that unions hold a yearly vote to remain union as that will motivate them to do as the employees wish and if not then remove that system and try something different. I am going to assume you are a union member judging by how that seems to be the one point you hit on and that’s fine but understand many people do not feel it necessary that when we have to support ourselves and pay our own healthcare/retirement packages that we should also pay for yours. I also don’t agree with you thinking he should simply apologize and fade away as in my opinion he has nothing to apologize for, we elected him and he is doing what he sees as best for WI and clearly a lot of people agree with him. When next term comes around and elections start i wouldn’t be surprised if Walker won again as there are simply no credible Dems that will beat him one on one.

Joshua, I’m sure the Chicago Tribune has an article on the recall, but that doesn’t change the facts you’re ignoring about his constituents in Wisconsin – the ones who overwhelmingly voted for this recall to happen after his disreputable behavior the year before.

I realize that the right wing talking point is to say this is “wasting more of the tax payers money” but that ignores the taxpayers who demanded the recall in the first place after Walker and his guys attacked the union workers in his state.

And it’s a fact that most of Walker’s own support is from out of state, including the mailing he sent to me and many, many other people in California.

If you want to find a source for the divide and turmoil in Wisconsin, you might look to Walker and the GOP state legislature, which openly attacked union members, even after the unions had agreed to the financial givebacks that Walker demanded of them. The GOP move was intended to first defund the unions and then disband them – by making the union members repeatedly vote to support the union and to support the union’s right to exist in the first place. Walker was clearly intending for the support numbers to drop as most people don’t pay any attention to those boxes. Had his plan succeeded, he would have accomplished a complete end run on the unions and killed them with one shot. And yes, that kind of behavior does make one a “rock star” for the far right. Walker clearly thought it would make him material for higher office. Instead, he’s now fighting for his political life.

The appropriate course of action for Walker and Kleefisch would be for them to humbly apologize to the voters and rededicate themselves to serving ALL of their constituents, and not just the right wing ones who have listened to the stories about unions. The union members are also a large number of the taxpayers and voters in Wisconsin, and it’s a shame that the right wing does not think that their voice should count here.

Again, I have hopes that Walker and Kleefisch and even the state legislators can learn their lesson and do the right thing. But their current rhetoric does not indicate that they are hearing what the voters of Wisconsin are saying. And has been stated on 538, even if Walker narrowly keeps his office, he’s likely to be drummed out in the next election. Many voters who don’t want to deal with a recall will still throw him out at the next opportunity. I personally think it would be a better learning experience for him to take the loss now, as he could still come back to office with a better idea of what he was doing. But one way or another, he’ll eventually get the message his voters are trying to send him.

The fact that Walker is a liar and deceiver does not matter. He promises a nickle in the pocket of his supports. A nickel trumps honesty, truth and righteousness every time. If Walker was charged of molesting 7 kids today, it would not matter. People have visions of nickels dancing before their eyes because Walker makes them think they will be rich. They don’t care what crap Walker pulls. Republican welfare of sorts. Like the Jerry Springer show the crowd is cheering Walker! Walker! Walker!

Well Walker did have a 6 point lead but that was extended to an 8 point lead in a t least one survey so odds are Walker will survive. I can’t help but think at this point we are just wasting more of the tax payers money as clearly the majority does not support this recall attempt. In contrast to earlier posting this recall was started out of state, to be more specific is started in Chicago where a media agency down there started issuing mailings and posting on facebook asking for volunteers to come to WI to collect signatures. These are facts and the Chicago Tribune went as far as making an article out of it so if anyone were to blame for the divide/turmoil it would be the far left out of state support that put this in motion.

I can already tell you how this is going to go. It will be nip and tuck and then sometime about 3 in he morning They’ll find just enough votes lying in a drawer between the socks and the undies in Waukesha.

The entire show was a bit shocking for Van Susteren. The clear intent was to promote Walker and his Lt. Governor as nice, sympathetic public servants just trying to help out the taxpayer while the evil liberals and government unions were spending lots of money (including taxpayer funds) to waste everyone’s time.

The Dem candidates did get a few moments to make their case, but far, far less time than the GOP candidates were given.

What is most shocking is the total lack of understanding by Walker or Kleefisch as to why the voters are holding them accountable for their behavior. The recalls were not put together by out of state union thugs. They were called by Wisconsin voters and taxpayers who were horrified by Walker’s vicious attack on the unions. Walker’s recently released comments about “divide and conquer” only point out that this was a planned move to weaken the Dem base in Wisconsin. (No union contributions for Dems means they cannot compete with the big business contributions for GOP. No unions in Wisconsin means no union contributions.)

Walker’s obvious intention was to pull a “shock and awe” move to essentially kill the public employee unions in Wisconsin with one shot. Had he succeeded in this, he would have been able to catapult himself to national prominence the same way Ronald Reagan did when he attacked the Berkeley protesters in the 60s. Instead, Walker was challenged by the voters of his state and forced to retreat into a purely defensive posture.

The proper response by Walker and Kleefisch should have been to humbly apologize to their constituents and to promise to uphold their oaths to serve all the people of Wisconsin and not just the GOP interests there. The proper response to the recall should have been to humbly acknowledge that the people have a right to hold them accountable and to promise to behave themselves. This was intended to be a teachable moment for Walker and Kleefisch – so that they could learn their lesson with the proper humility and good grace. It appears they are stubbornly refusing to do so.

I also strongly doubt Walker’s assertion that 75% of his funding for this campaign is coming from people donating 50 bucks or less. He’s outspending the Dems at 25 to 1. I don’t doubt that he’s fooled many GOP donators into sending him money – I received a request for money from him, and I live in California, and I’m not a GOP voter. But most of his funding is coming from some very well-heeled sources who don’t want to lose their standard bearer.

Hopefully, the recall may swing a little before the date and Walker and Kleefisch will finally receive the moment of clarity they so desperately need. I have hopes that after a few months back home thinking about their behavior, they may learn something.

Walker is an obedient tool of the Kochsucker brothers. His goal is the destruction of public services and public employees.

If he is allowed to continue in office, Wisconsin will become the Mississippi of the North.