Just perused the link you gave jon. You might want to try something a little more credible. Unless of course you want to argue supporting the right to keep and bear arms , a right to work agenda and supporting Israel is part of this "conspiracy’ of yours? Left wing crazy talk, to paraphrase you. One question Jon. Who executed 9/11? Muslims or someone else?

Continuing: Your belief that it is a “few extremists” in islam causing problems is entirely wrong. The basic philosophy of islam is a political one. You can not separate the two. If you would bother to research the matter, you would know that. start with the most recent success of islam. The take over of Egypt by the muslim brotherhood. Research their goals and the reasoning behind them then just listen to the various grand muftis. You see scholars such as myself do things like that.

Pat Robertson and company have been trying to manipulate the public debate for decades and have failed. Islam on the other hand has been gaining ground around the world and has a far more potent apparatus and strategy. Do the fundies have a one trillion dollar international finance structure and oil rich nations to back them in their desire to replace the constitution? No. Do they have a seemingly endless supply of terrorists to attack people around the world? no. Are they represented in the U.N. by a coalition of nations? No. I see by your statements you appear to be of the mind that since the fundies oppose islam anyone who also opposes islam is aligned with them or at the very least tolerant of them. You seem to have the world down to two groups, the fundies and yourself. You cannot call the statements by the fundamentalist Christians fatwas. You obviously have no idea what a fatwa is. FYI, I support the separation of church and state as outlined (and for the same reasons) , as enumerated in Jefferson letter to the Dansbury Baptists. You make more fallacies than anyone I ever debated before.

Also,you fellows really aught to pay more attention to what the Family Research Council is saying. Or Pat Robertson. Or any number of what should be called ‘Christian Imams’ who release their fatwahs every day on everything from social services to law abiding doctors.

You don’t have to believe me,and honestly I don’t care one whit if you do. We will never meet in this lifetime most likely. But for yourself,and if you truly fear theocracy,then you should take a look.

I hope Michael,that you didn’t hold your breath waiting whilst I was enjoying the time with my family. It’d be a shame that such a scholar as yourself choked out.

You really don’t seem to understand what I’m getting at at all. How many links do you want? Here is one. Start there:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/#Theocracy

And note: I never said there was a ‘papist conspiracy’. You did. Christian Fundamentalists have been quite open about their desire to take this country down the slop of theocracy. There was no need for a conspiracy and they openly promote this ideology. I said ‘papist’,as in Fox News invariably supports whatever doctrine or ruling that comes from the Catholic Church. Many of thier ‘journalists’ are avowed Catholics,and support the Catholic agenda. Which is their right. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t dangerous to the freedoms of the United States.

And yes,they are a few Extremists. Just as the Christian ones are. But the few extremists can influence many more with thier craziness. But that doesn’t mean the whole of Islam or Christianity is evil. That’s insanity. That’s bigotry,and it’s beneath any American who seeks to protect the freedoms of our country.

Get it?

Now,Mr. Kafir. I think you may be misunderstanding me as well. Although I think yours is honest,and not an attempt to be intentionally obtuse. I do not nor have I denied that there is a Fundamentalist Islamic problem. I do however,stand behind my assessment that theocracy will not come to this country waving a Koran,but waving a Bible. Which is simple logic. The Bible is already here. Christian Fundamentalists already have high appointments in our government. They have massive support from the citizenry. So gentlement,tell me who is crazy here? You or I? Which is the more dangerous? The crazy that lives in your building,or the crazy who lives 5000 miles away?

And I say that distance with clarity. Yes,there are Muslims in this country activily seeking to institute their decided way of life(or death as one might put it). But they are a tiny minority compared to the uncounted millions of Christians here. And those same Christians,who espouse the exact philosophy that it seems that you and Mr. Rome do,is what will not allow that to happen. They teach and preach the evil of Islam,same as the Muslims do to the Christian. I do not know whether to breath a sigh of relief or cry,as one theocracy is as bad as another. Even with that said,the Muslim problem won’t be our issue,but what will we do with the militant Christians already in our house?

I’m still waiting for documented proof of this “papist” conspiracy. :)

Under our flawed, money driven system of politics, those who aspire to political power are automatically suspect. They are drawn by power and money like moths to the flame.

I don’t think that is terribly “odd” to say.

I don’t expect or want any “help” from the Federal Government. When Federal gov’t officials come to town to “help”, grab your wallet and run away.

Federal Government “help” has given us …

The most underperforming educational system in the modern world.

Corn as fuel subsidies where the amount of energy spent to distill the fuel is greater than the amount of energy derived from said fuel.

Systemic paranoia which requires me to provide a legitimate, certified birth certificate and social security card EVERY TIME I renew my state driving license. But it’s “racist” to require picture identification when someone wants to vote.

(Funny that the president only has to have his national party “vet” his credentials. But wait til that Kenyan eventually needs a driver’s license…that photoshopped bullshit the dems “vetted” after the fact probably won’t fly past Mr. Hardass at the DMV.)

Tough sounding laws that say anyone previously convicted of a drug offense can’t get food stamps, while those already on the dole trade there stamps (or cards) for drugs regularly. But it’s not “cool” to require those on the dole to take drug tests.

Sorry Greg, but most of the things I’ve said belong less in the “Odd” category and more so in what used to be called the “Common Sense” category of ideas.

I know the term COMMON Sense is no longer valid since you’ve been in a public school/media reinforced trance state all of your adult life.

The gist of what I said earlier was this, I hope that someday soon, people will wake up and through out their superstitious, religious beliefs. I hope that they will realize that religion was a reaction to a previous mindset that was equally wrong, yet somewhat necessary as a means of philosophical evolution.

But we are firmly in the post-religion phase of human development or we’re coming to that point soon enough.

While you offered me pity because you think I don’t have faith in anything, I feel sorry for you that you still believe in bedtime stories and obvious mythology that has been taken literally for thousands of years too long.

If you aren’t able to see how issues; abortion, animal rights, environmental policy, death penalty, et. al., ad nauseum…are mostly bullshit, distractions, “pretty assistants” to keep us from watching the hands of the magician, than I feel sorry again for you.

Finally, as I referenced “Gawd” (whatever your culture or religious persuasion chooses to call him/her/it/them), you might try playing some mental games with yourself. Ask simple questions; “Why do bad things happen to good people?”, “Why do thousands of children starve daily?”, “Doesn’t any of this suffering bother you?”, “Are you up there?”, “Hello”, “Is there some other named Gawd I should be talking to?”.

I would hope that you would come to the conclusion that the concept of a “personal Gawd” who cares for you is ridiculous, and most truthfully, primitive, superstitious thinking.

As long as we have groups, nations, cultures thinking their dogma is THE dogma, we will have suffering, war, famine, pestilence…

When intelligent people, quit looking for some Gawd to come make it all better, and realize WE have the power to make it better, THEN we’ll begin to see some progress on the REAL issues that confront us.

It’s way past the point in time that we as a planet of people, discard all the old bullshit that hasn’t worked in the past; religion, nationalism, monetary systems, etc.

And maybe, finally we will realize that there are some rights that are inalienable to all; food, water, shelter, clothing. And we’ll have the courage to work together to actually fix these things, as individuals in cooperative effort.

This won’t happen as long as people are still arguing over which Gawd swings the biggest dick.

Brian you write a lot of words. Too bad they say nothing except you have some odd ideas.

Lakeview Greg, wake up, Yo.

Can you honestly say that you have “faith” or just plain believe that the Federal Government gives any percentage of a damn about you or me?

Our humble, citizen lawmakers quickly become millionaires before they retire or move up the food chain. Do you think this happens by accident? Many of them put their law practices or businesses on hiatus to “serve” us. Most of them earned more as civilians than as our “servants” according to their tax filings. BUT, with no exceptions I can come up with, they ALL leave office RICH.

They “follow the money” while in office. They are under extreme pressure to continually raise money for their next re-election run. They are implicitly “in debt” to their contributors. And NOW thanks to the Citizens United ruling that, for now, codifies that money is the equivalent of speech and that corporations are the equivalent of voting citizens, the Genie is likely forever out of the bottle.

If we don’t have the will, as citizens to end corruption in our own government, how in the hell do you propose that this same government will “protect” us from any real threat within our own borders?

Hot button issues are used intentionally to divide our citizens. It’s like the magician with the pretty assistant, nobody pays attention or even hears what the dorky magician is saying, they’re all hoping the assistant will fall off those 6 inch heals and show her ass.

Issues are the pretty assistant. The magicians are the federally elected liars.

It’s all a shell game. As long as you’re focusing on the pretty assistants cleavage, you’ll miss the magician picking your pocket.

Anytime a so called issue or hot topic is jammed down your throat you know it’s that hot assistant action again.

As an example, “Health care” didn’t rate as a topic 20 years ago, but when Hillary tried to take over the existing health care system with back room meetings, all of this as an unelected, unappointed WIFE of the president…it BECAME an issue.

Gay Marriage is one of the latest, polarizing issues. Where did that come from. We’ve known since Kinsey that they were “among us”. Why all of a sudden NOW does this come up? To provide, yet another, polarizing issue for a sufficient number of people to be “fer or agin”. Which way you feel about it doesn’t matter, BOTH sides use both sides of the issue to make or raise money by promising their side that it will prevail.

And then, maybe 20 or so years later some resolution or compromise or surrender will come about. In the mean time, it will be a money maker for those seeking power.

So, Lakeview Greg, I do NOT have faith in anyone but ME and in others who understand and agree with that statement. I do NOT wait for “them” (the government) to solve any REAL problem in my life.

All religion is pure bullshit, so I do not have any “faith” that some god figure is going to come down out of the sky and do anything to rescue me from whatever. I don’t believe that there could ever be any entity that would, willingly, by its own design or plan be a cosmic “scorekeeper” for each and every one of us. What an exhausting, horrible job.

You have to admit that Gawd is either doing an awful job, or he’s an unapologetic prick. Just look around, by the time you read this paragraph some unfortunate child has starved to death.

The whole Gawd concept, as a “man on a throne” doesn’t hold water. So please, don’t pity me for my lack of “faith”, Greg. Take a deep look at what you pray to and decide whether It is incompetent or indifferent. Either way, in my book if it CAN’T or WON’T lift a heavenly finger to help out down here, it doesn’t deserve my “faith” or consideration.

(Sorry to all that this is somewhat off topic, but Greg started the tangent, I wanted to respond so he doesn’t lose any sleep over my “Post-Religious” philosophy.)

I think, more than once, I’ve clearly stated that I believe ALL religion has become as useless as the appendix. I long for the day when we are free of outdated, superstitious thinking which religion is the poster child example of.

My opinions on Islam in particular do not come from a religious point of view. I don’t consider Islam a religion. I do believe that it is a movement, determined to see a world united under some harsh ass set of rules also known as Sharia law.

Islam IS the #1 world wide challenge to people who want to be free to think and say and do what they please.

Politically correct, liberals (the usual defenders of Islam) are the worst offending “infidels” by their own admissions of what they support. Everyone they stand behind; gays, feminists, etc, would be the first inline to be buried up to their necks and have BIG rocks dropped on their heads. Let’s see how all you lazy P.C. people feel when Sharia law gradually becomes home town law.

Let’s see how the women’s rights people feel when their genitals are hacked up by kitchen utensils as they are “circumcised” into the “faith”.

Decide the “religion of peace” isn’t for you after the fact, they issue a fatwa (place a target) on your back. And add a virgin in paradise for the Muslim brother who brings them your scalp.

And realize, these “moderate, reasonable” Muslims you call your friends are as much infidels as YOU are. When the REAL Muslims come to town, nobody but those who agree or do a great job of pretending to, will be spared the strong arm of Sharia law.

Jon, Hogrider made most of the points I would have.,as to the christian conspiracy to destroy the constitution, if there is one, it will be dealt with. THIS thread is supposed to be about Islam. If you have any documented proof of this Christian conspiracy then point me in it’s direction. I would love to see it. “Papist”? Either way, Islam has it’s stated goals and it’s obvious organizations for achieving them . The existence of any other attempts at theocracy do not negate Islams intent or actions. Currently, the threat is small. I will grant you that. Hopefully, it will stay that way. “Watch the rabbit, for if left alone it will , in time, grow fangs and become a wolf.” I forget who said that.

Jon,
I am not sure where you get your information, but I have to disagree here. The Muslim Brotherhood has laid out a very specific plan for overtaking the United States of America. I am not aware of any similar Christian doctrine. This Muslim Brotherhood plan was used as evidence by our government in prosecuting the Holy Land Foundation organization in 2007. Here I have copied just a piece of the MB goals for America, used in that trial.
4- Understanding the role of the Muslim Brother in North America:
The process of settlement is a “Civilization-Jihadist Process” with all the word means. The
Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and
destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their
hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious
over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and
have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work
wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that
destiny except for those who chose to slack. But, would the slackers and the Mujahedeen be
equal.

The MB has infiltrated many different levels of state and federal government agencies. Just to name a few: Alamoudi, now serving 23 years on terrorism charges. He was in charge of appointing Muslim Chaplains for the DOD prior to him being found guily of terrorism charges.
Right now look at the top aide to Hillary Clinton, Huma Abedin. Her brother and father were members of the Muslim Brotherhood, her mother is a member of the Muslim Sisterhood.
I will not continue as I could take up pages listing different people whose pledge is to the Muslim Brotherhood and are in prominent positions in our governmental agencies.

Most recently the FBI has purged many training documents from its manuals at the direction of CAIR. CAIR was founded by Muslim Brotherhood operatives, Nihad Awad and Omar Ahmad. They are also listed as unindicted co-conspirators in the Holy Land Foundation trial.

Again I could keep on going, but will stop here. Hopefully you get the idea.

Michael,you swallow elephants and choke on gnats. Your fear of Islam taking over the US is the fear of a child.

Rich: There are legitimate complaints about Islam. And there is a fundamentalist movement within Islam that would like the world under Shari’a heel. But they are no danger to the US. Our citizenry would not stand for such,and neither would the Christian fundamentalists who are way ahead in terms of control in this country.

The point is Bolling,one of Fox’s Papist supporters is deflecting away from the real danger to US freedom. That being the organised Christian church itself.

The piece by Priscilla complains about the “bashing” and “hatred” of Islam displayed by Bolling and Bell. Let’s for argument’s sake assume that Priscilla, and those in the comment section who agree with her, are correct that the “Erics” are wrong and unjust in their criticisms of Islam. The initial questions I have then for Priscilla and the other defenders of Islam here are these:

1. Can you cite an example of a criticism of Islam with which you agree?

2. Can you cite an example of an Islam critic whom you consider to be basically a fair, reasonable person?

3. Is it ever acceptable for a non-Muslim to criticize a Muslim’s belief or behavior?

Nonsense. You are making up your own agenda there jon. I oppose theocracy period. This however, is about Islam. It’s you and others like you who try and deflect from Islam by bringing Christians into the mix. Why? Because you can not defend islam at all. You HAVE to try and deflect and you have utterly failed. Christians will not establish a theocracy and neither will muslims. Islamisists are the adherents of the political islamic agenda, islamism ,fyi. You might want to look that up. IN fact, you might want to research quite a bit since you, quite obviously, know nothing of Islam or it’s actions. You have not shown the capacity for critical thinking at all. You have yet to challenge one fact I have brought out nor will you. You will just make false accusations and try and change the subject. You retreat into false accusations because you have no argument to make. Fallacies are all you have. Epic fail jon. Epic yet typical. BTW, the definition of :Is·lam·ism (s-lämzm, z-, sl-, z-)
n.
1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life.
2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. There you do not have to look it up. I did it for you.

JON TOOMEY WINS. SUCK IT!

You just lied.

You do not oppose Theocracy. If you did,you would oppose the 400 pound gorilla in the room,namely Christian Fundamentalists who are already in the US attempting to subvert it and the Constitution.

Like I said before,your motives are questionable.

If you opposed theocracy so deeply,you would be against a Christian one as well as a Muslim one. Note I said MUSLIM,not your right-wing catch phrase “Islamacist”. Right-wing hate radio much,Michael?

There is no delusion. You are a liar. And as such,do not deserve to be heard. Take your craziness,your obvious hate,and your right-wing fundamentalist catch phrases and crawl back to whatever hole you came from. You have nothing to fear from Muslims right now. They do not have people in high authority positions in the US government with the ability to actually change the Constitution(unlike Christians). They do not have the military might,in all the Muslim controlled countries on Earth,to take the US by force. Christian fundamentalists are already deeply entrenched in our Government,and work daily to subvert our law. That in itself,and your inability to say one single thing about it proves your lying.

You will have better luck going someplace where the commenters do not think critically. Like FoxNation or JohnnyDollar’s place. Good luck there.

You wish it were so jon. You bring your Christianity in, in an a attempt to deflect from islam and go ballistic when called on it. Too bad. As to your “morality”, try reading your own post. YOU brought it up. I will stand on the high ground of liberty and oppose theocracy. I will continue to lambast the muslims and their agenda all I want. You think I have "motives’ other than my research? What motives would those be? You have to create something in others to justify your own self delusions jon? funny how none of you challenge any of the facts I posted, now isn’t it? Is that the “crazy hate filled talk” you are referring to? Do they shatter your little world jon? Are you scared of facing the truth of islam and it’s stated goals? Reality a little too much for you?

Don’t speak to me of my morality. For one, I didn’t claim to be moral. For another, a person such as yourself who hates as deeply as you obviously do has no business even discussing the subject. And finally,I didn’t excuse anything. I merely pointed out that you are lambasting the Muslims and saying nothing of the home grown theocracy brewing in this country. And personally, I think you have motives other than your ’research’s that leads you to make that kind of case. You want to stand on the high ground buddy? Then call spades,spades. Christianity right now on the organizational level is just as heinous as any Muslim one. For that matter,you can keep your hate filled crazy talk. You’re as bad as any of the Fundy Muslims you rail against.

oH and Jon, I don’t care about your moral high ground or lack there of. . I care about an international effort to establish theocracy. A stated goal of Islamisists and one they are working very hard to achieve. If you are opposing Islam because you are a Christian I could care less,. You should be opposing Islams political goals because you are an American. They are more than welcome t practice their religion for themselves but, when they start to promote theocracy it is every Americans duty to stand up and say “NO, NOT HERE. NOT EVER”.