July 02, 2005
Christmas in July - Karl Rove source of Plame leak
That big whoop you just heard is me reading in Editor & Publisher that Karl Rove is named in the documents turned over by Time Inc. as the White House leaker who outed Valerie Plame.
I look forward to cries of treason and wall-to-wall coverage on Fox News Channel.
I also look forward to groveling and apologies to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.
As long as I'm at it I look forward to winning the Powerball drawing tonight.
Reported by chrish at July 2, 2005 05:01 PMAre you kidding me???? This is a great Christmas in July gift!!!!!
Posted by: emilycg at July 2, 2005 04:14 PM
I don't think anybody is suprised that it was Karl Rove, are they, it had his finger-prints all over it. Just don't expect anything to come of it, the Bush White House have been getting away with far worse dirty deeds for years, outing a CIA agent is the least of Rove criminal activities.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 04:28 PM
I can't think of a nicer asshat for this to happen to.
Posted by: Kim, Pb.D at July 2, 2005 04:29 PM
It's my birthday on July 4th. I was just thinking along the same lines as you. My wife wanted to know what I wanted for my birthday. Well, Nothing Now! I can think of no better present to me or the country than Karl Rove in jail at last. We suspected this from the start, but it sure is nice to see some chickens coming home to roost. I wonder how they will try to get around charges of treason? I just hope they're not powerful enough to squelch the truth this time.
Posted by: Atticus at July 2, 2005 04:30 PM
As they've said over on Daily Kos, the silence on the subject by Fox so far is very interesting. By now, the Fox folks usually have a negative issue thoroughly attacked and discredited (in their minds) by now.
Fox can't say this is just a meaningless little news bit. They can't pretend they haven't heard about it yet. They can only hope it's not true, but they're up a creek without a paddle on that point, because the upcoming document dump by Time is going to point right at Rove.
At FreeRepublic, they're saying "everybody knew" Plame was with the CIA anyway, so who cares? Too bad for Freepers and the Right - that's not the case.
Poor Bush. Things really are falling apart for him and his admin. This is getting very interesting!
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:34 PM
The key here is Cheney. If there are resignations, Bush must be the second to resign. CHENEY IS THE TARGET! He must resign first. He is the threat.
Posted by: Atom at July 2, 2005 04:35 PM
Many of us were pretty certain all along that Rove was the leaker. I think Wilson knew, and implied as much at the time. The only question was whether the truth would ever get out.
Now the question is whether there will be any consequences. I'm not all that optimistic.
Besides, the best case scenario also has a very big downside. Don't forget what happens to convicted Republicans. They become regular expert contibutors to FNC.
Posted by: John L at July 2, 2005 04:36 PM
If it breaks wide open this week, which I expect it to, I expect the following ramifications to have some serious effects on Bush's ability to force a far right winger through to the SupCt.
News has it that the calls themselves outing Plame came from Air Force One. Hmm.
If it does break, I don't know how many options the WH have. The only ones I can see is either spin it (can't imagine for the life of me how it can be spun positively), or flat out lie-n-deny.
Should be fun to watch.
Posted by: Kim, Pb.D at July 2, 2005 04:39 PM
Sounds like Cheney is implicated too, though that's not so clear yet.
Now, if Cheney had to resign (like Spiro Agnew), the GOP could benefit by sticking Giuliani in at VP, and give G. a leg up for 2008. How much of a benefit that would be remains to be seen. It'd be interesting to see G's personal history discussed on the big national stage.
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:41 PM
I believe that Bush would end up pardoning Rove.
Posted by: undisclosed_Location at July 2, 2005 04:42 PM
This is the place where righties grace us with their presence and profanity. I'd like to see what they have to say.
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:42 PM
I can't wait to watch. This is going to be very big!
Posted by: Jake D at July 2, 2005 04:45 PM
"Don't forget what happens to convicted Republicans."
_____________________
Yes, they become talk show hosts commenting endlessly on what they see as the left's "lack of morals ..."
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:45 PM
Hate to be gloomy, but I'll believe it only when I see Rove in handcuffs being led away. We've all see how the so-called left wing media avoid any subject that in a perfect world would have seen Bush and his gang locked up years ago; I mean to say if fixing the intelligence to provoke the invasion of Iraq hasn't seen mobs rising up to storm the White House then what will ?
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 04:47 PM
"News has it that the calls themselves outing Plame came from Air Force One. Hmm."
__________________________
This is just absolutely delightful! For the Left, anyway. For the Right, not so much.
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:47 PM
"if fixing the intelligence to provoke the invasion of Iraq hasn't seen mobs rising up to storm the White House then what will ?"
____________________________
The Right's been great at discrediting negative info. Now, though, things are getting way out of hand for them. We're reaching the "tipping point."
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:50 PM
You gotta know Faux is praying for some young, pretty white woman to disappear at this point. A celebrity melting down......the mother of all high speed chases in CA......anything to avoid having to deal with this.
I can only imagine what lame-O's like ManAss, Jackass Jarrett and Slannity are doing on their "Great American" weekend to spin this so Hail to the Chimp doesn't get the skewing he has coming to them.
Monday is indeed Independence Day, but the morning of 1/20/09 will be viewed as the second ID of this country....that or the day H to the C gets to play a character from OZ.
Posted by: slickwillie71 at July 2, 2005 04:51 PM
Yes, Chrish, there IS a Santa Claus!
This is incredible news!
I hope it holds up!!!
Marie Therese
Posted by: Marie Therese at July 2, 2005 04:52 PM
Some predictions:
1. Rove will publicly deny that he was the source. He will simply claim that he was contacted by Cooper for confirmation and he will deny that he confirmed.
2. Only if Novak and the Times reporter corroborate Rove's complicity will Rove be in any trouble.
This isn't over by a long shot. I'm not defending Rove, I'm just saying that it's not time to celebrate yet.
Posted by: mark at July 2, 2005 04:53 PM
"You gotta know Faux is praying for some young, pretty white woman to disappear at this point."
_________________________
With this admin, they just might MAKE some pretty white woman disappear. Or do worse.
Posted by: DaveO at July 2, 2005 04:53 PM
Ode to Geo. Bush
There once was a prez named Geo. Bush,
Who into Iraq this country he pushed
As the bodies and lies
Piled high to the sky
We descided to have another look.
Bush's own service record is a flop,
He took drugs and as pilot he was dropped
When it came to his war
He apparently went awol
IMPEACH THAT BLOODY MONSTER BUSH!!!!!
Posted by: Rich at July 2, 2005 04:54 PM
I hope your right, DaveO, though I wouldn't be suprised if the coloured coded terror alert system isn't dusted off and the level raised in the next few days, its always be a useful distraction in the past and Bush is at his happiest with the population scared and looking under the bed for terrorists instead of watching events in Washington
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 04:59 PM
Still keeping a close eye on CNN and MSNBC(can't stomach FOX.sorry) for the first mention of....what the hell...let's call it 'Rovegate'.So far the silence is deafening but I'm counting the minutes and hours until even these spineless lackeys are obliged to report it.Can't wait to see how to put a positive spin on treason.
Posted by: Unruh at July 2, 2005 04:59 PM
Ooops, DaveO, I of course meant I hope your right about this being the tipping point, not that the White House will "disappear" someone as a distraction, curse my slow one-fingered typing.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 05:08 PM
The big question is: who in the cabinet is complicit along with Karl Rove.
Who knew what and when did they know it?
Who's guilty of obstruction of justice?
Did Bush know about this?
Can we say --
I-M-P-E-A-C-H-M-E-N-T ???
Posted by: sunman at July 2, 2005 05:08 PM
Unruh,
It makes more sense for news like that to start coming out on Monday. Part of the reason, I believe, for some of the silence is that this came out at the end of the news cycle on Friday (news coming out on Friday evening is traditionally ignored/overlooked).
Posted by: Kim, Pb.D at July 2, 2005 05:15 PM
Unruh-
Would you consider switching the name to Turdgate?
Posted by: keg at July 2, 2005 05:29 PM
Haven't seen anything in the news reports yet which indicate Rove outed Plame. Just that he talked to the reporter. Substance of the conversation unknown as yet.
Posted by: Nat Nabob at July 2, 2005 05:30 PM
wow...
Doesn't it make sense now that Rove made the "liberals are weak" comment in New York. He knew this was coming and now, with his controversial comments fresh in the public mind, he can claim that this is a liberal witch hunt. Can't you hear the Cavutos, Gibsons and Hannitys right now, "Come on Senator, isn't it true that the liberal extremists despise Karl Rove and they will go to any length to bring him down." And they will say these things without any acknowledgment that he is likely guilty of leaking classified information for political purposes and perjury before a grand jury.
On the eve before the information came out Fred Barnes said on Special Report that this case was unimportant and that everyone believes that "special prosecutors" are out of control and ought to be phased out. Ironic, considering how important the work of our last special prosecutor was to the "Barnes right". Barnes wasn't his normally peppy and pompous self when he made this comment. I think he knows a storm is coming. To paraphrase the conservative pundits in the late 90's or those that froth over the UN Iraq oil scandal, "Let them investigate and see where the facts lead..."
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 05:34 PM
The administration will need something big, something bad, to divert attention from this news. Just watch. This will be ugly. Wag-the-Dog time.
Posted by: Stew at July 2, 2005 05:35 PM
My good friend and mentor Charles Johnson has decisively discredited this non-story at his blog littlegreenfootballs. Check it out!
Thank you.
Posted by: jheka at July 2, 2005 05:39 PM
Rove has been pulling this crap for years. It would be nice to finally see a little justice dished out to him.
It is amazing how easily people in this country have fallen for the tricks that Rove pulls. He is a great illusionist because every time the republicans need help, Rove pulls a little misdirection act that the gullible populace eats up. In fact, I bet that when this story finally breaks the White House will pretend to reveal something else important to try to change the headlines.
Posted by: DiveMiami at July 2, 2005 05:39 PM
Something bad may be coming.
Did anyone notice the flags at Bush's speech Tuesday? All of them had 9 stripes and 28 stars. Every single one of them.
It's a code for something. Anyone who has lived on Army bases and worked in Army base HQ knows that the Generals and all Commanders are positively anal about the flag. And there is no way they would have let this be seen unless they were told to stand down from it. I know the protocols we're taught in the HQ's, and an hour of it is dedicated to the flags itself. Even how to get rid of the HQ flag when the enemy is charging.
What caught me is that the 28th star is the representation of the new statehood of Texas.
Kind of a weird coincidence, huh?
Posted by: Dee Pb.D at July 2, 2005 05:42 PM
Dee, that is something that it would have taken me a lifetime to notice. Is that really true or an urban legend kind of thing (the code). There are so many things in the world I don't know (unlike O'Reilly, LOL).
rich,
If it was calculated (and knowing Rove, it definitely was), then what a rick, as it could equally backfire. Many, many people were none too pleased, and downright insulted (I rarely feel personal insult at what the admin says, but I did at that). He could be fresh in the minds as, "Oh yeah, THAT asshole. Well, if he could do that, it is gighly likely he could do anything."
I find it amazing that the so-called liberal press (like the NYTimes) could have ued this info to bring him down, yet chose to protect their source. Interesting.
Posted by: Kim, Pb.D at July 2, 2005 05:49 PM
risk...sigh
Posted by: Kim, Pb.D at July 2, 2005 05:50 PM
Keg...'Turdgate' it is.Maybe in deference to the easily offended 'Swinegate'.
Posted by: Unruh at July 2, 2005 05:51 PM
Dee,
What we noticed was the decidedly blue hue to the background, matching Bush's tie. Maybe it wasn't such a useless speech after all.
Chrish
Posted by: chrish at July 2, 2005 05:56 PM
Dee..
code for what? Not sure what you are implying... Why ask generals to stand down?
Kim...
I think Karl Rove would plan to use the left's hostility for him to his strategic advantage. If he angers them, that's okay. It is better in fact. Get the left overheated so if and when the (so far alleged) charges are revealed he will confuse the timeline (the information was already out) and declare he is victim to a vast left wing conspiracy (they didn't like what I said).
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 05:58 PM
Karl Rove has just been frog-marched from the White House!
http://s106901429.onlinehome.us/hr/ROVE.jpg
Posted by: Nat Nabob at July 2, 2005 06:00 PM
Thanks Unruh!
I'm gonna make a Turdgate t-shirt now.
Posted by: keg at July 2, 2005 06:15 PM
I certainly hope Patrick J. Fitzgerald has good bodyguards. Some of Rove's kneejerk defenders seem more than a little unhinged about this.
Posted by: melior at July 2, 2005 06:20 PM
no major news outlets have picked up the story... has anyone seen a report?
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 06:30 PM
Treason by a good man like Rove don't mean jack.
It's blow jobs that are a menace to our country.
The hack job on Karl is Clintons doing.
Death, destruction, treason, war for oil, liars in the white house? that's OK. It's those damn interns giving head that threaten to destroy the united states.
Posted by: JimB at July 2, 2005 06:35 PM
Hi, do we really need a major news outlet to pick this up? MSNBC's senior political analyst is the source. Here in San Francisco I can check it out when the McLaughlin Group is broadcast on a local PBS affiliate on Sunday July 3rd at 3:30am and 3:30pm. [Check local listings.]
Also, we Liberals are not overjoyed to learn that Rove leaked the info... or because this is the most evil thing he has done. We cheer and woop because he got caught breaking the law by a Special Prosecutor, we get to watch Conservative networks, journalists and bloggers squirm, and because this puts the "originally stated reasons for the invasion of Iraq" back in the national spotlight, among other things...
Posted by: Ross at July 2, 2005 06:39 PM
So they drag their feet on the perjury charges and then Bush pardons him as he exits in 2008.
Posted by: Diogenes at July 2, 2005 06:44 PM
It's well above catching Turd Blossom in just another dirty trick. What we have now is the Chief of Staff of the Vice President and the Presidents most Senior Political Advisor conspiring and enacting a crime under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982
This is some heavy shit. I put together an argument that I hope is pretty compelling on how serious this should be taken.
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 2, 2005 07:00 PM
Ross..
I would say yes we do need major news outlets to pick up the story since it could hardly be considered news if it is not reported.
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 07:00 PM
1. rove is pure unmitigated gutless filth.
2. surely he isn't so dumb as to think some "liberal" reporters would rot for him in jail.
3. he won't do any time for this.
4. the only way to save the country now is revolution.
6. this will not be covered on FOX or MSNBC because they are owned by the administration. FOX would rather do hours and hours of shock news. This is far to complicated for the dimwitted viewers of those puke fountains to comprehend.
7. bush would be bagging groceries in Texas if it werent for rove
lets see what he will do to help his friend "turdblossom".
Posted by: awsomebilly at July 2, 2005 07:02 PM
DT...
Heavy indeed... it probably won't ever go as far as treason... since the intent to undermine the nation is probably not there... but will probably include perjury and maybe even obstruction.
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 07:03 PM
You libs celebrate too early and for naught. You'll never get Mr. Rove. He has always lived years ahead of anything you've been currently thinking. I don't suspect it's going to be any different this time.
Posted by: Richard at July 2, 2005 07:04 PM
Yes Richard....
He is a wizard ... a soothsayer .... a genius ... a visionary ... and clearly above the law.
Posted by: rich at July 2, 2005 07:09 PM
Richard, given its the 4th of July weekend, do you feel that your pride in how clever Mr Rove is at treason is appropriate ? Just wondered.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 07:10 PM
Noticably absent here are the defenders of the administration.
I'm skeptical, I admit that, so you can therefore take my thoughts with that in mind.
Personally, I don't see this bringing down Rove. I see this as being explained as it being someone from Rove's office who certainly did not have Karl's permission to be speaking to anyone in the media about this sort of thing.
Memos, or the link, coming from the underlings is definately nothing new.
All I can say is that I'd hate to be a "red-shirt" in the Bush administration today.
Posted by: Canadian Paul at July 2, 2005 07:11 PM
Calm down everyone.
We dont know at this point if it is rove sure.
It is possible though and if it does turn out this way I wonder how far up the food chain it goes if any.
I suspect though that rove will take all the blame even if bush or cheney knew and probably get a presidential pardon in the end like Oliver North got.
Posted by: C.S. at July 2, 2005 07:15 PM
When this shit starts hitting the fan for the Bush admin, and *if* it starts turning the tide even more against Bush et al, then you better batton down the hatches, hit up some popcorn, and get ready for a little 9/11 reprise...
They've already been paving the way for it with the whole "if we're attacked again, you can blame the liberals" talking points they've been repeating lately.
what a sad time in our nation's history. sad...
Posted by: brokenrob at July 2, 2005 07:23 PM
Amazing.The only neocon defense we hear of Rove trumpets his upcoming magic trick of escaping charges of trason and undermining our national security.Isn't it so cool that he can screw this country again and again and get away with it.And what patriotism you cretins display when you defend him.Why do you hate America?
Posted by: Unruh at July 2, 2005 07:28 PM
C Paul
It would mean that Bush 43 thinks he is also above the law, and no man of any Honor like Bush 41. When Rove did the same thing with Bush 41 in the early 90's at least he fired the man for doing the same thing with the same hack, Novak.
Yes I'm sure about the flags. I couldn't handle watching Chimpy so I taped it while watching the Exorcist. If I had to watch horror, I wanted it to be something I could sit through without wanting vomit.
Posted by: Dee Pb.D at July 2, 2005 07:28 PM
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000972841
i guess you all read this update?
Posted by: wez at July 2, 2005 07:31 PM
rich,
I want to avoid hot button polemic words like treason, and keep my eye on the all. Wingnuts have used that word to describe everything from a blowjob to calling Bush's social security plans bullshit. The wingnuts have used that word so much, that it lost most of its impact. He and Scooter Libby, violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982.
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 2, 2005 07:34 PM
Dick, if the shoe fits........................ Treason n. violation of the allegiance due a state. Just another days work in the Bush White House.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 2, 2005 07:42 PM
This just made my day
Posted by: slackbabbath at July 2, 2005 07:45 PM
It would mean that Bush 43 thinks he is also above the law, and no man of any Honor like Bush 41. When Rove did the same thing with Bush 41 in the early 90's at least he fired the man for doing the same thing with the same hack, Novak.
Far be it for me to suggest that the current Bush Administration hasn't been entirely ethical, but I don't think they've been entirely ethical.
Posted by: Canadian Paul at July 2, 2005 07:51 PM
Fox News is ready to report on Karl Rove being a back-stabbing traitor. Mark Furman will be on to show his detective work has uncovered that Michael Schiavo framed Karl Rove and killed his wife Terri to stop her from telling the world about his evil liberal plot to hate freedom.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 2, 2005 07:53 PM
I don't think that this story quite qualifies as a news outlet picking up the Rove story, but I found it interesting as far as what might happen next--camparing the Rove incident with McCarthy in the 1950's.......
**********
http://hartfordadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:117510
I´m Melting!
The Wicked Witch is disappearing--Just Not Fast Enough.
by Alan Bisbort - June 30, 2005
Hartford Advocate
It's a great moment in a classic film. A frantic Dorothy splashes a bucket of water on the Wicked Witch of the West. The evil witch screams hideously as the water hits her, reducing everyone else into paralyzed silence. As she shrieks, "I'm melting! Meeelting," we are alternately ecstatic at her demise but terrified about what will happen next.
What happens next is the greatest moment in this memorable scene. After Margaret Hamilton disappears into a puddle on the floor, Dorothy and her friends stand down, awaiting their fate. But something wonderful and unexpected occurs. With the wicked witch's demise, her fear- and terror-driven spell has been broken, and the mob's temporary psychosis has been lifted. Instead of the dismal fate they'd presumed -- dungeons, torture, executions -- Dorothy and her friends are cheered and hailed as heroes. They'd freed the people of Oz from the tyranny of the witch! Hooray!
How did L. Frank Baum so accurately foresee 100 years into the future? When he wrote The Wonderful Wizard of Oz in 1900 Baum had no way of knowing how profound an impact his charming children's tales would have -- due to the 1939 film version, of course. Surely, he never imagined the likes of Mussolini, Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Pot Pot and Idi Amin roaming the earth. Surely, he never imagined folks like Sen. Joe McCarthy, Rev. Pat Robertson and Father Coughlin roaming the American landscape (Coughlin was a fascist Catholic "radio priest" in the 1930s). And yet, the darker elements in Baum's tales lend them the edge that has proven timeless. You can't have celebrations without also having wicked witches, cataclysms and imperious wizards hiding behind curtains. And that's why his tales perfectly capture the Age Of Bush.
We learned this week that the man behind the curtain is Karl Rove. This unelected White House adviser operates with a dangerously free hand, endangering the country with his chicanery -- he, in all likelihood, is responsible for revealing the name of CIA undercover agent Valerie Plame to the press -- and grievously wounding our democracy. As poll after poll continues to show that Bush and Cheney are melting ... meeellting, Rove has ratcheted up the fear factor. Rove's latest ploy, variations on which we will enjoy for many weeks to come, is to imply that "liberals" and Democrats are traitors and cowards. At a fund-raiser in New Jersey last week, he said, "Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." He also characterized the remarks of Sen. Richard Durbin -- who was, as any sane citizen of a free nation would be, disgusted by reports of Americans torturing and killing prisoners -- as giving aid and comfort to terrorists. "Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger," Mr. Rove muttered from behind his curtain. "No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals." There you have it. We're all "liberals" now, even moderates like Durbin. Rove's comments, and the refusal of the White House or the Republican Party leadership to denounce them, recall another great moment in our national "Oz"-fest.
The year was 1952. After months of Sen. Joseph McCarthy's (R-WI) relentless insistence that the government harbored "traitorous" Communists, the tipping point -- the bucket of water, the pulling of the curtain -- was reached. It came after the elections gave the White House (Eisenhower) and control of the Congress to the Republicans. Sen. McCarthy, already drunk with power, began to really push his crusade. He even went so far as to investigate the U.S. Army for "traitors."
Needless to add, no member of Congress stood up to McCarthy. It took a "Dorothy" named Joseph Welch, a lawyer for the Army, to finally, after a lengthy session with McCarthy, say the words all Americans had longed for someone to say: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness ... You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" After that, McCarthy was toast.
We need another Dorothy now.
*****
Posted by: Rich at July 2, 2005 07:54 PM
Let's not get too carried away. It surprises me very much that Karl Rove would get careless but there again, it's the hubris that brings them down every time.
Posted by: Maezeppa at July 2, 2005 07:54 PM
I too think caution is warranted here until all the lies are properly investigated.
Posted by: rick at July 2, 2005 08:11 PM
Y'all know that there's going to be an official spin released before Meat the Press and Georgie Porgie's This Weak, in the AM. The idea is to push back with the concise facts, severity of their implication, and reminding everyone it's Karl and Scooter acting in concert.
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 2, 2005 08:17 PM
I heard about this this morning. It's about a year late in getting out, but it's better than nothing.
Posted by: Alex Thorpe at July 2, 2005 08:24 PM
Karl Rove has had a long time to plan his strategy, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. The show, the Mc Laughlin Group has an interview with Lawerence O'Donnell of Msnbc, today, talking about the subject.
Posted by: think about that at July 2, 2005 08:26 PM
Brokenrob, you are SO right.You can smell it coming. That bastard turdblossom knew it was coming, and, I fear, is planning a massive diversion,to deflect the fallout.Color colored terrorist alerts, poisioned milk supplies,on and on. Who knows what they wlii bring about to survive. History shows that they will stop at NOTHING to maintain power. They have worked too hard to do otherwise.
Anyone notice the curious absence of all of our smug thrombosed ,tiresome hemmoroids? the silence is deafening! DOOOHHH!!!!
And, for the record, call me crazy, but 911,,,,,,,,,. WE are talking about the NEW WORLD ORDER HERE, that has been in existence for HUNDREDS OF YEARS, to acheive a common goal.
They will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to maintain the control that they have worked SO hard for,for decades, indeed, CENTURIES, to acheive. that being said, I hope and pray for the opposite. between this and looming battle over the Supreme court, God, it's going to be a hot,ugly summer. Nevertheless, TURDGATE!!! Love it!
AS the immortal Bette Davis said in All About Eve," Fasten your seatbelts,we're in for a bumpy night'. In this case we're in for a bumpy summer. God help our country.Dnurse
Posted by: Dnurse,pbD at July 2, 2005 08:28 PM
MSNBC Analyst and a Newsweek Reporter Say Karl Rove Named in Matt Cooper Documents
Editor & Publisher, July 02, 2005
...Here is the text of what O'Donnell said on Friday:
"What we're going to go to now in the next stage, when Matt Cooper's e-mails, within Time Magazine, are handed over to the grand jury--the ultimate revelation, probably within the week of who his source is.
"I know I'm going to get pulled into the grand jury for saying this but the source of...for Matt Cooper was Karl Rove, and that will be revealed in this document dump that Time magazine's going to do with the grand jury."
Other McLaughlin Group panelists then joined in discussing whether, if true, this would suggest a perjury rap for Rove, if he told the grand jury he did not leak to Cooper...
...According to published reports, Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor in the case, has interviewed President Bush and Vice President Cheney and called Karl Rove, among others, to testify before the grand jury.
"The breadth of Fitzgerald's inquiry has led to speculation that it has evolved into an investigation of a conspiracy to leak Plame's identity," the Chicago Tribune observed on Friday, "or of an attempt to cover up White House involvement in the leak."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000972841
Posted by: -R at July 2, 2005 08:32 PM
"or of an attempt to cover up White House involvement in the leak."
>
Anyone else smell the distinctly unpleasant odor of 1974?
Posted by: -R at July 2, 2005 08:41 PM
NBC'S "Meat-Less-Press" and ABC'S "This Weak" with Stepford host, George Stepha.... Will only cover the supreme court situation tomorrow. Count on it!
Posted by: think about that at July 2, 2005 08:44 PM
I just ran across this Murray Waas article from over a year ago. If this has legs, add perjury to the heap.
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 2, 2005 08:49 PM
Waas article. (thought I could use html)
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7272
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 2, 2005 08:50 PM
Drip, drip, drip.
Someone forget to put his finger in the dike?
Posted by: Judy Down Maine at July 2, 2005 08:53 PM
Someone forget to put his finger in the dike.
-------------------------------------------
I put my finger in a dyke once. We became good fiends.
Posted by: JimB at July 2, 2005 09:33 PM
friday of a 3 Day,..4th of july weekend and a supreme court vacancy to use as a diversion.
Posted by: b at July 2, 2005 09:38 PM
Rich, we already knew Rove was the man behind the curtain. Good analogy, though.
Posted by: ash at July 2, 2005 10:01 PM
What a treat! I do think think we're headed for Spin City, but this may be the Shrub's *-gate* event. A pox on all their houses!
Posted by: Paula at July 2, 2005 10:02 PM
Little children, I would not be in haste to put that last nail into Roves casket just yet.
I could care less what ideology the leaker is however, if this were a liberal you folks would go to the ends of the earth to defend him, "he didn't lie, it isn't sex, Monica was a republican in a blue dress, and all the other wacko, kooky blather you spew.
If Rove is the leaker try him!
The Party Pooper
Posted by: gfl46 at July 2, 2005 10:04 PM
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_06_26_digbysblog_archive.html#112032436596998
this is a really interesting take on this.
Posted by: KARIN at July 2, 2005 10:23 PM
look at you liberals lol...all giddy like schoolgirls that Rove might go down....on his stupidest day Rove is smarter than 1000 liberals and 100 reporters....how idiotic you all are....if it was Zarqauwi that leaked the name you would all be chipping in for a lawyer...if your all so against the war grab an ak-47 and do what john walker lynn did....you may get your liberal asses kicked by U.S forces however.
Posted by: Brian at July 2, 2005 10:27 PM
Brian
dittos
Posted by: gfl46 at July 2, 2005 10:29 PM
Republicans deserve their reputation as the uneducated. They are not even smart enough to lie, and say they care the Repukes are liars and traitors. They don't. They openly admit that they are corrupt criminals, but *powerful* corrupt criminals who will get away with it, like they want. Umm.. Republican retards, that was how you won the hearts and minds of the Muslim people, by being stupid enough to actually tell them how RACIST you are, and how much you hate them and pray for them to die. Worked real good. Made you LOSE BOTH WARS. Man, Republicans are idiots. At least learn to lie better.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 2, 2005 10:50 PM
I am from Australia, and I must say that I am dumbfounded as to how dopey most Americans could possibly be. Neo-con shills like this gfl46 really take the cake though, but I still wonder how on earth so many Americans can be so un-educated (even if the machines were rigged)as to vote for such a dopey person like Bush.
People like gfl46 should go back to shoving their heads back up Bush's butthole, and feeding on nothing but the shit that Bush spews out to them.
I personally have never seen a dopier president than Bush in any country, his statements are all the proof one needs to see that he is the result of some trailer trash evangelical fools who had incestuous relationship, and produced one backward, dopey and nutty person and decided to call him George.
As for the story involving Rove, do you peole seriously believe that the American people as a whole will be able to understand this thing, for crying out loud, go to some red states and the people there cannot even give you the proper answer to the arithmatic 1 + 1. So Rove will go on being the master behind the puppet Bush, and people like gfl46 wil continue to lap up the shit that Bush feeds them, and we here in Australia will just keep sitting back and laughing at how dumb Americans can get.
Posted by: Taher at July 2, 2005 10:50 PM
Brian, you have got to be fucking kidding. This has absolutely nothing to do with how smart Rove is. I am certain that he is a very intelligent man, but what has that to do with the fact that, if this is true, he committed a federal offense?
And for that matter, what does this have to do with the war? If this story is true, then Rove committed borderline treason, end of story.
Posted by: Adam at July 2, 2005 10:58 PM
can you just imagine if this were a democrat in the white house? whoa-the repiglicans would have the tree ready for the lynching. actually if bush were a dem, he would have already been impeached...the repigs think they are above the law. i hope everything they did to clinton and all their lies come back to them and their kids and loved ones double. too bad they diss stem cell research..they will need it.
Posted by: KARIN at July 2, 2005 11:12 PM
taher
Now we know why they call it "down under".
Posted by: gfl46 at July 2, 2005 11:14 PM
gfl46,
Funny thing is that it is you Americans that are viewed by the rest of the world as being dopiest, un-educated fools ever to grace this earth, just go to any non American site and read what the rest of the world thinks of you.
Posted by: Taher at July 2, 2005 11:19 PM
Funny thing is Conservatives could care less what the rest of the world thinks.
Posted by: gfl46 at July 2, 2005 11:35 PM
It will be nice when the Republican Party writes the fiction Fox will broadcast as the damage-control for Karl Rove's treason. Maybe that Fox Network 'Daily Show' actor, what's his name? O'reilly will read it to them. Then, they can know what they think and come back and tell us what they were programmed. P.S. The coalition of the willing - has AUSTRALIA second to England. Believe me, I do understand you want to wash off the blood and hide your guilt; who wouldn't. I mean, it is not like Iraq is full of Abos; if it was, you could not shoot them fast enough.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 2, 2005 11:45 PM
Comment deleted.
If you have nothing more to add than insults about American soldiers, go away.
Chrish
Posted by: Taher at July 2, 2005 11:45 PM
I for one want Australia in my side in a fight. Like, 10,000 of your best troops would be as good as even 15, no 20 Maori.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 2, 2005 11:50 PM
Fastillion,
Australia is only in Iraq because John Howard seems to be enamored by wanting to be the poodle of Bush. But lets be honest, neither Australia nor Britain is doing any wholesale killing like the criminal Americans.
Were you trying to take a swipe at the treatment of Aborigines here in the early days? If you were, then you have the gall to talk, as if you are from the United States of Fools, then you are alot more guilty what with the way you treated native Indians and then the African Americans until recently, and if you are from Britain need I say anymore, people around the world are still recovering from you historic crimes.
Posted by: Taher at July 2, 2005 11:55 PM
You know, if Australia would only give England those chickens back you stole, they might pardon you, and you could leave your penal colony and go home. Even a chicken thief can look up 'willing' in a dictionary. coalition of the willing. It's your bed, convict; you sleep in it.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 2, 2005 11:59 PM
Brian...
Those US forces are as much mine as they are yours.In fact I'm quite certain I pay more for their maintenance than you do. And since this is a free country we have the right to be for or against the war. I think it is sad that you can't see that this war was prosecuted on false grounds. And that this war effort is incompetent. You have been lied to and deceived -- as have our troops. I sincerely hope we leave Iraq a better place than when we arrived there. I am fairly certain the Iraq campaign (unlike the unfinished campaign in Afghanistan) has not made us one bit safer. And I'm also certain a stubborn and ignorant yabbo like yourself will never admit these truths.
Posted by: rcalderon at July 3, 2005 12:06 AM
deleted
off topic
chrish
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 12:07 AM
who thinks taher is a republican and not an austrailian?
Posted by: b at July 3, 2005 12:07 AM
I regretfully have to agree with gfl46. Conservatives really don't care about anyone else but themselves. It's such a small world they live in. I live in one of the most conservative areas in the country and he isn't lying. I don't know where that sort of thinking comes from but it must be painful for them. In my experience, they seem very afraid, so they push their chests out and say "we don't care what anyone thinks." Sad, really. It's like dealing with unruly children who refuse to be disciplined. Rove is out of the box. Conservatives can't honestly defend him, so, out comes the we don't care about anyone card. It's just spin; a Republi-con tantrum.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 12:10 AM
deleted
off topic
chrish
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 12:14 AM
regardless, this story will get big
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/lawrence-odonnell/its-rove_3556.html
Posted by: b at July 3, 2005 12:20 AM
look at you liberals lol...all giddy like schoolgirls that Rove might go down....on his stupidest day Rove is smarter than 1000 liberals and 100 reporters....how idiotic you all are....Posted by: Brian at July 2, 2005 10:27 PM
------------------------------------------------
To quote Winston Churchill:
*
"If you will hold out alone--long enough--there always comes a time when the tyrant makes some ghastly mistake, which alters the whole balance of the struggle..."
*
I would say that it sounds like the tyrant--err--I mean Rove--might have made a ghastly mistake.......:)
Posted by: Rich at July 3, 2005 12:23 AM
Deleted
off topic
chrish
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 12:27 AM
Sadly, I don't think this will go anywhere. Rove will get a medal of freedom and Lawrence O'Donnell will probably have to resign in disgrace.
Posted by: Chris S at July 3, 2005 12:28 AM
Good grief people. Wait for the confirmation reports, hold a trial, and THEN if Rove is found guilty you can rejoice. If he's guilty of perjury, obstruction, and outing a CIA agent (dunno the technical charge) then by all means, string him up. If not, then let it go.
I'm still confused though. How can President Bush be BOTH a stupid chimp and a maniacal genius mastermind capable of weaving such a web of intrigue?
Posted by: Night Stryker at July 3, 2005 12:37 AM
Good Grief Night Stryker, Who in this administration is ever held accountable?
And Bush can be a stupid chimp in the way he acts and a maniacal genius in the way he plots.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 12:45 AM
deleted
off topic
chrish
Posted by: Jacko at July 3, 2005 01:05 AM
Any comments on this article, seems to be all the rage:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/
Posted by: Gus at July 3, 2005 01:07 AM
think about that: held accountable for WHAT? Innocent until proven guilty, remember? If Rove is guilty for outting a CIA agent, I firmly believe that he should be hung from the nearest tree (I'll even supply the rope) because you simply CAN NOT do that kind of thing and maintain a competent inteligence service. But saying he should be taken out back and shot before there's even been a good look at this information is jumping the gun by a fair bit. Ditto for the DSM. Didn't Blair survive an inquiry BASED on that memo? Obviously the British government didn't think it said what people over here are saying it said, or Blair would have been out on his ear.
Posted by: Night Stryker at July 3, 2005 01:11 AM
Innocent until proven guilty? First, we are not legally prosecuting and therefore can’t falsely prosecute. Second, ever heard of Terri Shiavo? No brain and blind, for all intensive purposes she did not even HAVE a head. Republicans went INSANE to keep a headless dead woman on a tube, AGAINST, all known scientific, medical, and highschool biology relating to the comical hope of people regrowing missing brains. Republican’s FAKE Fox News infomercial BASHED her husband Michael with a billion dollars of air time. When the Autopsy proved with 100% certainty that Fox Infomercial Fake News and the Republicans were wrong, Fox skipped that, and went STRAIGHT to, “Michael Shiavo MURDERED his wife; let’s push the murder SPECULATION full-court, and even a book suggesting it.” – and I note STILL ARE! [with the help of Jeb Bush and any other Republican who can influence injustice with their positions] Innocent until proven guilty? Karl Rove is a traitor and a HUGE figure in our government, and won’t even appear on Fox AT ALL! And as we all know, America is more corrupt than Columbia, and he will almost certainly walk anyway. Since the entire corrupt media is Karl Rove’s armor, and our voices are but whispers in the hurricane of the Repuke’s Weapons of Mass Deception, he is hardly being harmed. I have a DUTY as a man who loves America and (I am forbidden in America to even say this but I will) NOT love Israel, to protest corruption and treason when the opportunity presents itself.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 01:29 AM
Chrish,
How dare you delete my comments just because they do not paint American soldiers in a good light? I suppose its ok for you Americans to invade a country and keel its people, then when someone calls you hypocrits out on it, you delete the posts. Do you intend to make this site nothing but a cheerleader site for your soldiers who have committed horrors under the leadership of the very same people you despise who are in power in your country. If the minions carry out the crimes of the planners, they they are just as much to blame, so before you delete my posts, maybe you should try to defend the crimes done by your soldiers that cause me to be so agro to the American people as a whole.
I cannot stand to see the sight of the lowlife Rove, but hearing you people complain about the actions of this fool is comedic, considering the guys with the 2 top jobs over there, that is Cheney and Bush, are worse than him by a thousand times, yet somehow they were still re-elected.
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 01:42 AM
Taher apparently doesn't read anything before he posts nor know anything about what he's actually talking about.
That being said, it's well past my bedtime.
Posted by: Canadian Paul at July 3, 2005 01:49 AM
My good friend and mentor Charles Johnson has decisively discredited this non-story at his blog littlegreenfootballs. Check it out!
Thank you.
Posted by: jheka
--------
Jheka,
I checked out LGF, and was, as usual, disappointed. The only story up about Rove was here.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=16468_The_Hidden_Hand_of_Rove&only
His debunking?
"The amazing thing about this story is that Lawrence O’Donnell still has any credibility left, after his bizarre meltdown during the presidential election."
He is referring to O'Donnell yelling "Liar!" at a Swift Boat Vet for Perjury.
Wow. You call that a debunking? If this guy is your mentor, you must really be a dumbass.
+++
Night Stryker
"Good grief people. Wait for the confirmation reports, hold a trial, and THEN if Rove is found guilty you can rejoice. If he's guilty of perjury, obstruction, and outing a CIA agent (dunno the technical charge) then by all means, string him up. If not, then let it go."
A reasonably cautious statement. Newsweek has confirmed the O'Donnell's statement.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/
"I'm still confused though. How can President Bush be BOTH a stupid chimp and a maniacal genius mastermind capable of weaving such a web of intrigue?"
Bush, from my point of view, is an idiot. He is helpless in business, lacks intelectual curiosity, freezes when under stress, and incompetant when it comes to speaking. His only genious is in how he presents himself to others.
Rove, on the other hand, is tricky, but again, no genious. His plans rely on some of the most basic forms of propoganda, and he has been caught before. Never on something so serious as this, though. The myth of Rove is that he is brilliant and untouchable.
He considers himself above the law. Serial criminals like him always get sloppy. When they get sloppy, they get caught.
Why would Rove do the leaking himself? Because this way, only himself and his press-stooge would know who-dunnit. Its not a huge web of intrigue. It is an elegant single step. He only got caught because the game involved a serious crime against the nation and our security. Subpeonas are a bitch.
----
Taher,
You deserved what you got. Your comments were hate-filled and off topic. Most of us here are taking the Bush Crime family on for their war crimes, and trying to get our troops out of the position they are in.
Posted by: Robster at July 3, 2005 01:56 AM
Taher
your on the outside,looking in.call it like you see it.........
Posted by: DavidRWoods at July 3, 2005 01:57 AM
Anyone who thinks Karl Rove will go politely is out to lunch. There will be Republican cries of "frame up" by Democrats, dirty politics, denial up the kazoo, claims someone else in the White House actually did it and put Rove's name to it, you name it.
The BIG QUESTION is what will Bush do. He's spent any political capital he had with his pitiful explanations trying to tie 9/11 to his Iraq debacle and trying to skate away from the Downing Street Memos. Will he go to bat for Rove? Does he have the juice left?
But -the media seems to have swung strongly to the defense of Bush, however. CNN put out a poll headline saying after his Iraq speech Bush had a 43% positive rating for what he said. (fine print told us 50% of those polled were Republicans and ONLY 23% were Democrats!); HARDBALL had a panel heavily stacked in Bush's favor commenting on his "wonderful speech" and great strategy for Iraq.
There has been a major, coordinated press effort to play down the Downing Street Memos.
In addition, there is a general MEDIA EFFORT UNDERWAY TO SHORE UP WHAT REALITY IN IRAQ IS DOING TO BUSH.
So - Rove. Media could rush to his rescue as well with phony excuses, dilutions of information in any indictment, etc.
With NPR and PBS under assult the Internet is just about the only source of raw, true news left.
Do not gloat that this creep Rove will meet is just rewards anytime soon.
Bob
Posted by: Bob at July 3, 2005 01:59 AM
DavidRWoods,
thanks for that.
its just that i think everyone should take responsibility for their actions, and that no one should be excused from something they did just because they were told to do it.
for instance, Rove could claim that he was told by his commander-in-chief and immediate boss that he was to leak the identity of the cia agent, would he be excused by everyone here they same way they are ready to excuse their troops that also claim they were told to do their wrongful actions?
what i am saying, is before everyone here bleats on about how unmoral and wrong it was for rove to do what he did, they should concentrate on holding everyone accountable for their wrongs, and give noone, i mean noone the chance to claim they were told to do something. it may just come back to bite you in the butt if rove uses the same excuse that everyone here is willing to except from their soldiers, that he was told to do it by his superiors, and roves superior not being just a generasl, but the actual commander-in-cheif.
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 02:20 AM
Just read the headline... and with an instant reaction got up, walked to the cabinet and had a shot of Tequilla... really.
Posted by: Kid Hobo at July 3, 2005 02:21 AM
No so fast about the Internet Bob...
From what I've been hearing, and there has only been one news report of it, and that was on XM Radio, the Administration has started putting armlocks on the ISP's telling them they have to comply with saving all internet transactions, e-mails etc of ALL their customers, and have to turn them immediately over to them. If they don't, quess what will happen to the ISP's and OSP's and Cable outlets? These guys seem to be quite the little aficionado's of mafia tactics.
Posted by: Dee Pb.D at July 3, 2005 02:25 AM
This is just my take on the 21st century, but I keep seeing the same thing. SUPERPOWER government really can, and does, have all the power. They can control the media, the thoughts of the masses by nothing more than following the Orwellian model, terminate investigations, or provide fake results to investigations. Fix votes. Do anything. This leads to helpless and hopeless. However: it is not ending there at all. They CAN make their opponents helpless and hopeless on every level, but, TERRORISM. Oklahoma City or Iraq or the Apartheid Wall of Israel. They can make people helpless, but instead of giving up, they are, well, !EXPLODING! I am not so sure how great total domination is.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 02:30 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/internet_control&printer=1;_ylt=AlpfJYLtR8H8AK5N5ssFOVdk24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
The recent activities towards controlling the Net.
Posted by: Dee Pb.D at July 3, 2005 02:34 AM
Taher,
I was following orders is no excuse. Not for troops. Not for Rove.
Our anger at the abuse and torture of POWs is mainly directed at those at who bear the most responaibility. Rumsfeld. Bush. Cheney. The officers who set the policies of abuse.
Some soldiers have already recieved their punishment. The leaders who have let the soldiers be scapegoats are the ones we must stop.
Attacking the troops doesn't stop abuse. Changing the policies will help. Ending the use of contractors such as CACI and Titan will go a long way to stopping POW abuse. But getting rid of the neocons is the real goal.
We are not giving anybody a free ride. We are jsut focusing on what will help.
Posted by: Robster at July 3, 2005 03:11 AM
Robster,
well it seems to me looking in from the outside, that if the democrats want to kick the neo-cons out of power and punish them for all this fiascos, then you guys are going to have to get alot tougher.
as i said, i am looking from the outside in, and i am telling you that the perception we on the outside get is that the democrats are nowhere near as tough abd blunt as they need be to get america's good name back.
we watch as some democrats grow some balls and go on the attack, but then all too regurlarly we also watch as the repug neo-con counter-attack and because of this get away with murder literally, as in the case of iraq.
we from the outside cannot seem to fathom why on earth democrats are so scared to sustain an attack against bush and his cronies, and the way we see it is that the democrats need a long sustained attack that is ferocious to unseat the neo-cons. why does bush get such a pass from the media in the usa, considering how much howard and blair got pummelled in their own country's respective media? why cant the dems sustain an attack against the neo-con shills? why do they always back off when the heat turns up? are they afraid to be called unpatriotic?
seriously, the dems need to grow some decent set of balls and go on the attack and keep on the attack, not let bush and his cronies squirm out of anything like they have for 5 years now.
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 03:54 AM
Rove is a powerful man. Watch the spin.
Posted by: don at July 3, 2005 03:57 AM
there is only one truth. what is right and what is wrong. nothing can change the actual truth. not spin, not money, not anything. truth is simple. it is real.
Posted by: KARIN at July 3, 2005 04:09 AM
Karin - I have heard your words so many, many times before. "there is only one truth.." and you mean like say - GOD! - for example. Hmm, there is only one true God, ect, ect, with the one true truth, ect, ect, and then of course - let me guess.. all that one perfect God truth is YOUR TRUTH and NOT mine. There are other names for your one truth - Colonialism, Holocaust, master race, the shining path, Neo-cons, Islam, Al Qaeda. We have had more than enough of that. No ONE PERSON, gets to ram their FAKE one truth down the throat of everyone else. I will make my OWN subjective value choices, thank you very much, not have them dictated to me by you or your cult leader. Just tonight Fox is running some infomercial prepping the masses for his invasions of Iran and Syria, and the draft he needs to get his manpower. Fox Anchor and the Israeli, chatting how their MUTUAL GOD and then Muslims have a different God. PURE LIES! I am an atheist. All three have the SAME GOD - the God of Noah, Moses, and Abraham. Iran DOES HAVE America's God.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 04:25 AM
look at you liberals lol...all giddy like schoolgirls that Rove might go down....on his stupidest day Rove is smarter than 1000 liberals and 100 reporters....how idiotic you all are....if it was Zarqauwi that leaked the name you would all be chipping in for a lawyer...if your all so against the war grab an ak-47 and do what john walker lynn did....you may get your liberal asses kicked by U.S forces however.
Posted by: Brian at July 2, 2005 10:27 PM
------------------------------------------------
Brian
dittos
Posted by: gfl46 at July 2, 2005 10:29 PM
------------------------------------------------
Gee, you guys REALLY DO like to echo each other, don't you? That whole "ditto" thing got old around the time when I was following Rush on the same radio station in Allentown, PA back in the early 90's. By the way, I was told by my boss that I shouldn't point out Rush's errors and lies on my show because we were all one big team. Ah, memories!
Posted by: Cranky Media Guy at July 3, 2005 04:36 AM
Taher, I saw none of your deleted posts - workin' weekend for me - but thank you for your outside-in comments I have just now been digesting. I think more of us here in the US understand the importance of global community than you outside our borders realize. We're unfortunately prey not just to spin and a "conspiracy of silence" at home, thanks to the likes of Faux, but to the spin that is exported in our name as "THE" American Point Of View. At the grassroots, at least, it's not so monolithic.
Anyway, please keep calling it as you see it. Links would be welcome and helpful - excepting the trolls, regulars here are not at all averse to looking at diverse views of ANY issue, and you can probably point us to things we would otherwise miss.
- - - -
How can President Bush be BOTH a stupid chimp and a maniacal genius mastermind capable of weaving such a web of intrigue?
Posted by: Night Stryker at July 3, 2005 12:37 AM
I remember a friend voting for Reagan because she thought he "was a nice guy." I told her then, I don't care how "nice" he is, what I worry about are the people he'll attract into his orbit. And sure enough, we got the likes of James Watt, Reaganomics, ketchup-as-a-vegetable and so many other charming, retrograde policies.
Same deal with Bush. He's the smirking-chimp, (phony)down-home, C-student front man for a group with an agenda and plan that is at best misguided and creepy, and at worst cynical, immoral and apocalyptic. Go Google PNAC, those of you who haven't. The leader is a puppet. Look for the strings...
- - - -
Dee PbD - long time no post, how are you? - that is so weird about the flags. I fully expect elevated color codes and whatever other "big distractions" can be pulled off on a holiday weekend to be forthcoming, but your observation takes that worry to a whole new level...
Wonder if NASA's conveniently-timed comet-busting adventure is involved. Will it all go horribly wrong, on cue?
Sad that the thought even has to cross one's mind.
- - - -
Rich - the OZ analogy is a good one. Already more journalists are coming out of the shadows...maybe they're feeling emboldened and that they've "always had the power to go back to..." - wait a minute - Kansas?!?! Land o'intelligent design and the not-so-Rev Fred Phelps? Hmmm. Maybe Kansas ain't the place we want to go back to....
BTW - I am seeing Rove muttering to himself, "I don't believe in spooks, I don't believe in spooks, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't..."
- - - -
Oh, and Dee? The business about U.S. keeping total control of root servers is scary as all hell.
Too late for me - calling it a night...
ET PbD
Posted by: ET PbD at July 3, 2005 05:18 AM
ET PbD,
lucky you didnt get to read my deleted posts, otherwise you probably would have abused me in your post. in my earlier post i was just angry with so many americans, like the gop trolls, that i lumped all americans into the same mix, and used some inappropriate language and said some inappropriate statements. so yeah, glad they were deleted, as this way i can make a freash, clean start on this forum.
now about the situation with bush and his cronies, once again, i still do not get why he is allowed to get away time and time again with virtually murder, as in the case of iraq?
why do we constantly see democrats lose their cajones as soon as the neo-cons stand their ground? i like kennedy because he speaks his mind and is never afraid, but others seem to be forced to say somethings that they may not necessarily feel because they are afraid of being labelled unpatriotic.
and that results in a unwinnable cycle, because the democrats have no guts to speak the truth, then they do not get anywhere near as much traction against all of bushs stuffups, which again results in them being afraid to speak their minds for fear of being labelled unpatriotic, and the circle just keeping going round and round.
i have realized that everytime a neo-con politician or supporter says or does something controversial, that the whole repugs band around the person and defend them even when it is an undefensible position, which helps in keeping them in power because most people do not pay attention to the words spoken, but to the attitude and also to how hard a person defends their stance. when the public sees all the repugs defending one of their own, even in the most undefensible position, they the public get a sense that the gop and shrub supporters are firm and resolute which we know is not true, but the percerption is out there.
as oppossed to the democrats when one of their own says or does something that can be construed as controversial then the rest or ar least most of the domcratic party will turn on their own to seem patrotic even though the they know that it is their party that is in the right. this inturn makes the public think that the democrats as a party have no firm or resolute message, and that they will not stand and fight even when they are in the right, and this also has the effect of getting the public to question whether the democrats will stand firm and resolute to defend america when they see daily that the democratic party as a whole will not stand firm and resolute defending one of their own that is in the right.
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 05:47 AM
Taher, I try not to be abusive! Except with the trolls, who, well, kind of invite it. Certainly not of you, I trust.
I really do think that the post 9-11 mindset in the U.S. is partially to blame for the hesitancy of the Democrats, and other progressives, to really push their viewpoints more vigorously.
Before 9-11, whenever the U.S. became engaged in a global issue, it was in a conflict that didn't bring its chaos to our shores. Think about it - WWI, WWII (apart from Pearl Harbor: as we know, a flashpoint in so many ways), Korea, Vietnam.
9-11 made it a reality that the U.S. wasn't unassailable, could be impacted from outside our borders.
That's a scary prospect, for a populace that has never before had to face the realities that France or England or any number of European countries had to face, in WWII. (My spouse, BTW, was born in the last years of WWII and grew up under rationing in England, so I think I understand something about that viewpoint.)
When your populace is not accustomed to political violence happening in its midst, there is immense pressure against speaking out and saying, yes, the voice that inspired that violence MAY have a valid point to make. You've been insulated. You maybe "don't get it" on a global level.
Before the trolls pounce, that doesn't mean that Al-Qaeda is right. Nonsense. But it does mean than maybe U.S. policy in the Middle East has spawned legitimate grievances that should be aired in a fair, unilateral, peaceful forum...not at gunpoint.
That doesn't excuse our Democratic legislators. I write to them frequently, whatever their parties (and I have one D and one R senator charged with speaking for me, in my state, as well as one very conscientious D representative of whom I'm very proud!), urging them to take positions that condemn what I see as egregious abuses of power by our executive branch.
I get back form letters.
In short, Taher, I wish we had "Question Time," as the British Parliament has of the PM. I wish I could feel it wouldn't get worse, before it gets better.
But the truth is...the U.S., by my reading, is now beholden to the corporate bottom line. And that bottom line is solidly in the BushCo pocket.
It will take something really big, egregious and blatantly dreadful for the climate to change. And I watch for that sea-change every single day. And I'm not alone.
Is the potential Rovelation it?
I don't know. But I hope.
ET PbD
Posted by: ET PbD at July 3, 2005 06:36 AM
Taher.....You need to develop some fucking manners and get an education as to the REAL situation in which the American public finds itself. The people you paint with the same broad stroke are a multi-faceted and complex society, with many faces, of which you are obviously not familiar with.
Im disgusted by your rudeness in jumping into this community and screaming your ignorant abuse at people on this post whom (for the most part) I consider intelligent, rational and very much more informed than yourself.
As an Australian, I have learnt a lot from Newshounds in the last 10 months and am deeply ashamed by your contribution so far.
Please Newshounds, and all other posters, do not percieve Taher's comments as indicative of all Australians.
Taher, you need to step back and read the posts here for a while before sprouting your theories on ALL Americans, which are rooted in nothing less than total 'Herald Sun' ignorance.
The people here are fulfilling a very desperate need in the US, and deserve our heartfelt support. I understand your concern regarding the US. I felt the same way before becoming educated regarding them.
Save your heated vehemence for the Christian Right in the US, not the people struggling to bring the them back to its rightfull place of leadership in the world.
Posted by: Greg (Aust) at July 3, 2005 06:43 AM
All that said, I wish to send out a big "FUCK YOU IN THE MOST SEVERE WAY POSSIBLE" to that pathetic little gutter troll Gfl or whatever your pathetic little letters spell out.
You make me sick and you and your ilk are the very reason the rest of the world makes such mistakes when painting all Americans with the same brush.
Posted by: Greg (Aust) at July 3, 2005 06:49 AM
ET PbD,
i must say that it is so refreshing to hear from an american who represents the usa of old, when your reputation of helping the oppressed and being for freedom was well deserved. i had almost given up thinking that there were any americans left who felt strongly about justice for all and not just those of u.s citizenship, and so i thank you for pointing out that americans like you are still there just not heard enough.
i still maintain that the reason democratic party is not able to make big inroads even with all of bush's stuffups and lies, it because the democratic party as a majority is not willing to stick up for each other, too many members like zell miller turn on their democratic partners as soon as the repugs put a little pressure on. where in contrast, the repugs always come out and put on a full court press to defend their compatriots even when they have what should be an indefensible position.
so once again i ask, why dont the democratic grow some balls and and go on the attack instead of always being on the defensive.
i also think that enough time has passed after 9/11 that the majority of american public is willing to treat serious issues such as war and lies as the serious issues they should be, and willing to discuss them even in critical terms, but the public needs to be led into the direction, and that will not happen until democratics learn to stick up for their partners when they trully believe their partners are in the right. this is the stratedgy the repugs follow, because they figured out long ago that most americans will just follow along with those that make the most noise regarding an issue.
Posted by: Taher at July 3, 2005 07:00 AM
Taher,
Check into "who" owns almost all American media. It's only about 6 big corporations, run by rich corporate ceos who all give generously to republican candidates and the republican party. They have a media monopoly here in the U.S.
If we want real news, we have to seek it out on the internet. It's not on our TVs or in our newspapers, with very few exceptions.
Also, do some googling for VNR (video news release) and you'll see that government propaganda is alive and well.
===
Cooper's source is, according to Time, Karl Rove. But there were two top Administration officials leaking Plame's identity. Who was the other one?
- Also, what about those forged Niger documents that were used and referred to in the 2003 State of the Union address as one of the justifications for invading Iraq? Who forged them? Where did they come from? Get to the bottom of that and you win the Pulitzer Prize for Journalism next year.
- Another unanswered question, unrelated to this scandal, is Who was the source of the Anthrax delivered via postal mail to certain journalists and politicians a few years ago (that no one talks about anymore)? Get to the bottom of that and you might share the prize with the person who answers the first riddle.
Posted by: Aine at July 3, 2005 07:02 AM
Night Stryker Sez: "Good grief people. Wait for the confirmation reports, hold a trial, and THEN if Rove is found guilty you can rejoice. If he's guilty of perjury, obstruction, and outing a CIA agent (dunno the technical charge) then by all means, string him up. If not, then let it go.
I'm still confused though. How can President Bush be BOTH a stupid chimp and a maniacal genius mastermind capable of weaving such a web of intrigue?"
------------------------------------------------------
I know Oliver North is guilty of money laundering and supporting the machine that got us into Iran-Contra, Felonies all, and treasonous ones that should have felled him and the people he was working for. I've seen them get off before. Watch for the Administration to balk at the charges (if any are actually brought).
The technical charge is, I believe, treason: when you "breach national security by giving aid to your enemy." (American Heritage Dictionary) Neocons have been defining the education of the public to the government's shady dealings as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." That's an odd phrase, until you look the word treason up.
To your other question, Bush's administration is a pack of very intelligent predators - he's more of a mouthpiece that toes the party line. Before Bush, Republicans had considered Dan Qwayle to run in 2000. They didn't want a leader, they wanted a pretty pawn.
Posted by: Stencil at July 3, 2005 08:08 AM
There is more - They are now saying Bush knew:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=32&num=4629
This story is just starting to unfold....
Posted by: Reneepbd at July 3, 2005 08:57 AM
Reneepbd, that piece is dated June 3, 2004.
Let's not feed the trolls.
Posted by: Krinsel at July 3, 2005 09:43 AM
This will be a long time in unfolding. They will attempt to spin this thing until they're blue in the face, and yes, sadly, I believe Rove will be pardoned.
However, if Rove really is punished, well, you know the old saying... "Cut off the head" and what not. If Rove goes, the entire Republican party will be in a state of disaray, no one will know what to do or say and they're agenda will fall flat on their face. Let's hope!
Posted by: Janie at July 3, 2005 09:44 AM
If this doesn;'t bring Bush down,I don't think anything will.This is the biggest scandal since Watergate
Posted by: Lynn at July 3, 2005 10:05 AM
Sen Schumer is calling for Rove to make a clear statement. What are the odds of THAT happening? The spin begins...
Posted by: Paula at July 3, 2005 10:22 AM
Oops sorry guys, I should have noticed the date.
It is still relevant as to where this is story leading...IMO.
Posted by: Reneepbd at July 3, 2005 10:26 AM
AH, the sweet sound of whirring as the republican machine start the spinning...... Let's see, how does that song go? Deny, blame, accuse.
Now all you little duckie republicans, wait until tues so that Rush can tell you what to think. And how you should think. All you little duckies start quacking, yes, that's it! On cue! Beautiful! Now everyone march lockstep. What purty little duckies you are. Now as your treat we are going to spend endless hours searching for the missing Aruba girl because we having nothing else to say. We'd like to show you all the good we're up to, but that's classified. See, we know exactly how to feed our little duckies.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 10:29 AM
Two events are here. 1) Karl Rove is a traitor, and perhaps pulling Bush down with him. 2) Bush is set to load the first of his two neo-con politician 'judges' onto the Supreme Court. So, the people against Bush in both camps have a lot of reason to see Rove fry in the traitor seat. Bush will find it much more difficult to sodomize us with his his psycho-right puppet judge while America is wondering how big a criminal he is. The massive importance of this judge flat-out DEMANDS he be in sterling character to show he is WORTHY of making an appointment at all. The judge only spotlights him more like a deer in headlights.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 10:42 AM
The conservative media (thats all of USA media) will never report this and if they do it'll be as a "Ah, no big deal."...
Wake up Sheeple.
Posted by: il128 at July 3, 2005 10:51 AM
Stencil: Neocons have been defining the education of the public to the government's shady dealings as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." That's an odd phrase, until you look the word treason up.
=================
At the same moment I read this, I was watching Cal Thomas' show (on tape) from last night. He used that same phrase to describe Democrats that criticized Bush's Iraq speech: Hillary, Kerry, and even Baye (heretofore the DARLING of the RW, among Dems) When he had Lindsay Graham on, he tried - by repeating the same phrase twice more - to get him to go along. To his credit, Graham refused to endorse that assesment - although just by saying it 3 or 4 times, Thomas had accomplished his mission: paint Democrats as TRAITORS.
To our friends from Down Under: You don't understand the media in this country. The RW GOPers have been buying up - or forcing out of business - media outlets, since the '70s, leaving us with only THEIR slanted views being fed to the American public.
The public, being deliberately dumbed-down for decades - by systematic de-funding of public schools, public TV/radio, and libraries. Then they are fed "don't pay attention to what our gov't does, look over here" sensational stories about shark attacks, missing pretty girls, Michael Jackson, Lacey Peterson.
As expressed by gfl46 above, there is an endorsed ignorance of the rest of the world. The neocon chickenhawks on Fox squawk that "they need us more than we need them." Fox, Limbaugh, (to a lesser degree) MSNBC, tell their viewers to "get ALL their news here" and that it's downright unpatriotic to read the NYT, WashPost, or watch CNN (which has been steering hard right since the Clinton impeachment) and UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES read The Gardian/Observer or any other foreign source. Fox even has a resident xenophope - John Gibson - who wrote a book accusing the WHOLE WORLD of hating America. Every day, at the end of his show he bashes France, Germany, Russia, Italy... for not letting Bush run THEIR countries, too! They endlessly bash the UN as anti-American.
Those who take their advice, have no counterweight to the constant barrage of propaganda, and end up swallowing it hook, line, and sinker. They have also co-opted the church in this scheme, so whatever they paint as anti-American is also anti-Christian/anti-Semitic. Their victims, who now believe that Muslims (Islamo-fascists) want to KILL every American man, woman, and child, to impose THEIR religion on the entire world. (as opposed to THEIR spokesperson Ann Coulter, who famously said "we need to invade all their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity")
They flatter "middle Americans," the know-nothings, who take PRIDE in their ignorance - who reward them by voting for the GOP they endorse.
The RW uses 3 Nazi proverbs (Yes, I said Nazi - but it's TRUE): first, if you say something often enough, and loud enough (they've added: having it come from as many different voices as possible,) people will come to believe it; second: that it is much easier to make people believe the BIG lie, than a small one - because people will think "they wouldn't lie about something THIS big" (like the reasons for the Iraq war), and third is a quote from Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials: "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
Rove has implemented the above policies, and they've worked well, up 'til now. Once Rove is gone, Bush will be neutered. Cheney is, IMO, in charge, but he can only preach to the choir. Rove was the one who pulled all the media strings and framed the debate. To paraphrase what someone upthread said: If not for Rove, Bush would be a nobody - sure, his daddy's name would seat him on oil company boards, but only for his name - no actual effect on policy.
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 10:52 AM
"The judge only spotlights him more like a deer in the headlights"
I do get sick of seeing that expression on his face everytime he speaks to the American people on tv
Posted by: Lynn at July 3, 2005 10:53 AM
Over at America Blog:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SNIP/
Saturday, July 02, 2005
McClellan said leaker should be fired
by John in DC - 7/02/2005 06:40:00 PM
CNN.com, September 29, 2003:
McClellan said that if anyone at the White House leaked Plame's identity, he should be fired, and pursued to the "fullest extent."
"No one was authorized to do this. That is simply not the way this White House operates and if someone leaked classified information it is a very serious matter," he said.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/mcclellan-said-leaker-should-be-fired.html
Posted by: Reneepbd at July 3, 2005 11:02 AM
Taher,
We're good then.
It does illustrate an important difference, though. Our trolls often claim we are attacking the troops when we attack the neocon policy.
In attacking both, you demonstrated what anti-war protesters once did, and how we now differ from the worst of Vietnam era protests.
On the democratic party needing to grow a pair you are right. We want them to fight and fight hard. The future of our nation, and the world, is at stake.
Posted by: Robster at July 3, 2005 11:27 AM
Thanks, SteevK. When I hear the phrase, "...gives comfort and aid to the enemy," it's usually coming out of the mouth of either Sean Hannity or E.D. Hill. I love how the word "comfort" managed to worm it's way in there (not in the definition).
There there, enemy. There, there. Does enemy want his blankie?
Posted by: Stencil at July 3, 2005 11:28 AM
Was reading on Drudge that in October of 2003,Rove appeared on Chris Matthew's Hardball and said Plume's wife was "fair game" This is the way the Rove machine operates.Its seek and destroy anyone who gets in the way,even if it means breaking the law
Posted by: Lynn at July 3, 2005 11:30 AM
Taher at 10:50 PM,2 July,excellent descripition of Bush's so-called creation!Couldn't you just visilize Bab's taking a humping from George 41,complaining about not having a screen on the window in their 16 ft.trailer,because the flies were landing all over her "Beautiful mind"!Then as the big day came ,George popped out and the field hand present wanted to pinch his head off because nothing,"backward,and dopey looking" should be allowed to take another breath,
Posted by: frank at July 3, 2005 11:42 AM
Let me repeat this once again.
Plames working for the CIA was no secret in Wash.D C.
It has been reported in the Media that in party circles it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE Plame worked for the CIA.
What you should be concerned about is the parties(lots of them) our congressmen go to and spill their guts.
For those who failed the "test".
It has been reported in the MEDIA that in party circles it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE Plame worked for the CIA.
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 12:00 PM
GFL46,I've started with your airhead excuse and will be keeping track of the excuses you and your kool-aid drinkers make.It was"common knowledge" that Saddam had WMD too!That excuse has been flushed down the crapper long ago,how long before your excuse hits the flush mode?
Posted by: frady at July 3, 2005 12:14 PM
gfl46, then why is their a special prosecutor looking into it? Appointed by this Administration! If it is no big deal then why has the White House been acting if its a big deal? Scott McClellan, who the last time I looked speaks for the President, said it was a serious matter. The apologists for the President will of course say that its not a big deal, or its something everybody already knows(a.k.a. the Downing Street minutes).
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 12:16 PM
This right-wing "old news" and "common knowledge" excuse is wearing thin.
And most of Bush's troubles are not necessarily proven misdeeds, but the appearance of a culture of deceit. I'll put my faith in the Court of Public Opinion, thanks.
Posted by: Chris W at July 3, 2005 12:26 PM
jlstexas
Its clear you would have failed my "test".
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 12:27 PM
chrisw
prepare to eat your words.
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 12:34 PM
hey g, send you're test to Scott McClellan,
maybe he will spin some answers you like.
You offer nothing to the debate except that you agree with the foul mouth Brian, who is typical of Neo"Cons" that resort to petulant frenzies when they can't give respectable answers.
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 12:39 PM
as gfl46 states, he could care less what the world thinks, yet he is quite concerned what people think on this forum. He cares so little he has "tests." Why does someone who claims he doesn't care, write so much? It's just spin. The subject is Rove. Throw any pitch you like glf46. We know you care what other people think of you or you wouldn't be writing. It wouldn't even occur to you to be on this forum.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 12:40 PM
You offer nothing for the debate, you won't debate, you won't do this and you won't do that!
You don't care!
What I care about is my country. How many charges have you made against Bush? 1,000- 10,000,
Bush has been under constant attack since 2000 A.D.
Before he was elected, I said to a liberal co-worker that the democrats had both sides covered in the election. Hell, he out liberal-ed Ma Richards to win as Govt. of Texas. Bush is no friend of mine.
But as president I will back him. He is a "public servant" not a god.
This is our country and to have you liberals come out day after day to smear Bush, smears the country also.
Attack, attack, attack, its no wonder that the perception around the world is that the American people hate their own country.
We're are at war over the ideology that will lead this country in the 21 ST century and letting you liberals win is not an option.
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 01:03 PM
What is this "test" that gfl46 speaks of? I hope it has nothing to do with education.
On another thread, someone stated that more highly educated people are libreals than cons. I can attest that I've seen more Ph D's here than any other forum. Oh, wait (covering one eye) that's "Pb D" - never mind <;~)
Actually, Dr Matt and Liz(?) ARE Ph D's - and I've noticed a few teachers - but I may break the mold as a HS grad w/2 employer-funded community college night courses under my belt. I know I tend to over-punctuate (it's a COBOL thing...) but I hope I write coherently.
In my work life, many of my degreed colleagues come to me for answers, as I'm the resident Guru on CICS w/25+ years experience.
Glad to be here, anyway... HEY, McLaughlin is on my PBS station NOW gotta watch!
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 01:15 PM
The BS you spew forth is political rhetoric, you don't believe the allegations you put forth, its for that reason I don't debate.
It is a pathetically ignorant position to attack everything Bush has done, yet its all you have.
The fear I have is some poor sap will believe your rhetoric and act upon it.
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 01:16 PM
[[[Let me repeat this once again.
Plames working for the CIA was no secret in Wash.D C.
It has been reported in the Media that in party circles it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE Plame worked for the CIA.
What you should be concerned about is the parties(lots of them) our congressmen go to and spill their guts.]]]
So, this is despite the White House's official position on this. Did not Scott McClellan say that the one who leaked this information would be punished? Wouldn't it make it difficult to punish someone for releasing information that was common knowledge? What would be the point of having the court order Time magazine to release the information on who was the leak, if it was common knowledge? Why would it get any attention at all, if it was common knowledge?
So, according to you the media and the White House are making much ado about nothing.
Your arguement makes no sense given how the case has unfolded and is unfolding.
You like to contradict just for the sake of contradicting, but you should at least try and make it somewhat plausable.
Posted by: Canadian Paul at July 3, 2005 01:16 PM
Pretty basic dribble g. the world is so black and white to you isn't it? If you are against the war in Iraq, that means you are a liberal. According to you, only liberals are against the Iraq war, is that what you mean? If we are upset that President Bush LIED, that means we hate our country, is that what you mean?
Yeah g, I get upset when war profiteers like President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, and now it appears Karl Rove LIE !! Why don't you get back on topic and start defending you're Upline,
Karl Rove. Obviously , they have been hiding this story for along time, and once again contrary to what you have been saying , the White House has treated this pretty seriously, so I ask you then, why did the Bush Administration direct the Justice Department to find out??
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 01:18 PM
Novak, Novak, Novak - It is incomprehensible that no one in the investigation is questioning Novak. I think this is as big a scandel as Rove. What influential person or persons has insulated Robert Novak and why? I believe this house of cards is about to fall.
Posted by: LD at July 3, 2005 01:22 PM
glf46, quit being so sappy. First you say you don't care now you say you care. Make up your mind. You say you don't care what the rest of the world thinks and now you're saying what? That we are in some global war but conservatives don't care about what the rest of the world thinks. Hmmm... You say we're are smearing Bush? I think Bush is smearing us. Just admit it. You care about liberals. You care about the rest of the world. I admit. I do. That's why I fight people like you who spread your idealogue. I ask questions. I enjoy learning about other cultures and seeing in what ways we can improve. But if you are asking me to go lockstep with a President who lies like Bush, boy you are not all there. The topic is Rove, quit spinning!
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 01:23 PM
jlstexas
You make my case for me. Thanx
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 01:23 PM
OHHH now according the the g-man, "attacking the Bush Administration will cause someone to "act". By that I am sure you mean something like a "Terrorist" act. Now I have heard everything!!! It would be "pathetically ignorant" to "attack" someone on everything they do, however, it is also "pathetically ignorant" to ignore LIES and then to let someone keep LYING to you as you blindly accept them.
But I don't know why I would even waste the space here arguing with someone who refuses to say anything except crying about "attacks" on the President, and then pretty much says the discussion on here will cause someone to "Act".
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 01:26 PM
gfl46: Bush is a liberal??? You're kidding, right? He is the farthest RW president we have ever had! He's WAY to the right of Reagan. He's probably the only American to the right of NEWT & Hannity!
He, or rather, those who pull his strings are using scare tactics to further an ideology of empire-building, which is bankrupting America.
He doesn't care about average people, only the ambitions of those - like him - who crave great wealth and even greater power. We are just his (unwilling) human shields!
Think about it: He & his sleep in a bunker surrounded by armed guards. Nobody's getting to HIM, but thanks to his pissing off the whole world - and sending our nat'l guard halfway around the world to conquer/plunder the ME - WE are sitting ducks!
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 01:32 PM
jlstexas, glf46 is lost. He has gone lockstep with Bush and now is afraid of asking questions. By his logic, as long as we are at war, he will follow blindly. Sad isn't it?
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 01:35 PM
g, at least someone made you're case even if it had to be done sarcastically, certainly you are doing a poor job at it!
Put down you're PomPoms and skirt and start defending Karl Rove. You've already labled everyone in here as a liberal and America hater, but you haven't said anything that hasn't been knocked out of the ballpark. "common knowledge", oh please !! that why the White House and the spokesman for the President said the things they did.
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 01:35 PM
Greg... THANK YOU.
Brian... What a tool, trying to compare Bill's flirting with Monica to Karl Rove's TREASON. What a tool.
Bottom line, we know what the output will be. The Libs will be demonized for persuing this and causing damage to our war effort because we gave the GOP so much strife over these and many other issues.
Same as Rush implied it's Deep Throat's fault that we lost the Vietnam war.
You ultra-right-wingers are some of the most dangerous people in the world.
Posted by: brokenrob at July 3, 2005 01:44 PM
Did anyone notice how seriously Laurence O'Donnell is sticking to his sources and facts?
He has already rebutted the Lawyer for Rove and challenged Karl Rove to tell his story , the one he told the Grand Jury.
Finally! A reporter who is not going to back down to the intimidations of the White House!
O'Donnell really is sticking to his guns.
One more thing for g, cmon dude! do you have to drag out the Rush Limbaugh sayings, "Ma Richards".( You know Limbaugh always respected the President, no matter what party the President is from, Ha! remember the outright hatred of Presidents Clinton and Carter) Ann Richards is a great all around person, someone who you would love to invite to any function. To say that 'Dubya' "out liberaled" Ann Richards is also a ludicrous statement.
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 01:53 PM
The other day on Hume's show - before this revelation - Barnes and Liasson were trying to make the point, as they did over a year ago, that Rove (they just said the "leaker") wouldn't be guilty if they were unaware that Plame was an agent. As Jon Stewart would say: "WHAAAA??" How could they be unaware of the info they leaked??
This was, as Joe Wilson said, an attempt to chill future whistle-blowers - as the viscious smears they launched against O'Neil, Clarke, Sommers, Ritter, Kwaitowsky, and even Shinseki. They were called disgruntled, liberals, Democrats (in that sneering Carl Cameron voice), greedy (those who were promoting books), traitors, even a PEDOPHILE... Just last week Rove tried to smear Democrats & liberals for the Iraq war "project" going bad!
The chickens are coming home to roost. Sure, we won't convince those Fox/Rush/Savage/Hannity addicts, or the fundies that think Bush is the Messiah, but they are a minority that is shrinking by the day!
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 01:55 PM
good one SteevK, I have noticed the same kind of responses lately from Fox News. Makes you wonder how long this "secret" has been going around. Laurence O'Donnell said he has know for a couple of months. Where is the Fair and Balance on Fox? (stupid question I know) Where is the "liberal boogeyman media"?
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 02:04 PM
liberal speak
Oh, (gush) good(f'ing gush) post.
Yeah, right on Bush, is gone for sure this time(posted fot the 1,ooo time). Idiots!
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 02:13 PM
Gfl must be a very important person. It seems he goes to all the important parties in Washington.
I think Gfl stands for Goofy Fucking Liar.
Posted by: john t at July 3, 2005 02:14 PM
One more thing for g, cmon dude! do you have to drag out the Rush Limbaugh sayings, "Ma Richards".( You know Limbaugh always respected the President, no matter what party the President is from, Ha! remember the outright hatred of Presidents Clinton and Carter) Ann Richards is a great all around person, someone who you would love to invite to any function. To say that 'Dubya' "out liberaled" Ann Richards is also a ludicrous statement.
==============
Rush & Co, like Ollie North SMEARED Clinton non-stop during Kosovo (in WARTIME!) Their excuse was that he wasn't "a REAL Commander in Chief" - I guess because he wasn't a Republican. They SCREAMED Clinton never served, yet never called Ronnie Raygun or Bush Jr a ChickenHawk... GOPers get a pass from them.
Rove SMEARED Ann Richards. Started rumors that she was a LESBIAN, a crook, alcoholic, stirred up sexist hatred. On one of the pre-election specials on CNN, one of his TX campaign workers said that before the campaign even began, they pre-recorded an ad decrying attack politics, then sprung it after she made a joke about Poppy Bush. This trick was a favorite Rovian trick. Anyone remember his attack ads against other GOPers in the primary - for attacking HIM, or warning them not to! Rove was so skilled than that most people thought McCain was more negative and attacked more than Bush, and this was AFTER the SC smear campaign!
To his credit, Bush stayed absolutely on message in his Gubenitorial campaign. I saw some footage of a Bush- Richards debate, and he would just come back to his 3 main talking points - robotically disiplined. He must have been SOBER back then...
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 02:15 PM
gfl46, i thought you didn't care? You can't hide gfl46.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 02:16 PM
Some of gadfly's greatest hits in this thread...
"I could care less what ideology the leaker is however, if this were a liberal you folks would go to the ends of the earth to defend him, "he didn't lie, it isn't sex, Monica was a republican in a blue dress, and all the other wacko, kooky blather you spew.
If Rove is the leaker try him!"
I'm going to keep this one and quote it if gadfly goes back on this. And his claim that we would defend a liberal no matter what is just plain stupid. I wouldn't defend anyone who commits treason, but which side hires traitors for its propoganda news channel?
"dittos"
I could write, "I agree," but I have to pay homage to Limbaugh.
"Funny thing is Conservatives could care less what the rest of the world thinks."
No shit. We ignored the world telling us that they didn't buy our WMD evidence, and wanted to let the inspectors do their job, but Bush had a timetable based on elections to follow.
"It has been reported in the MEDIA that in party circles it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE Plame worked for the CIA."
So party circles knew. Does that excuse TELLING THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD? Does that make it ok to ENDANGER ALL HER CONTACTS AND INTEL SOURCES TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS? Does OBL hang out in party circles? What about AQ Kahn? Dumbass.
"prepare to eat your words."
Whatever.
"You offer nothing for the debate, you won't debate, you won't do this and you won't do that!
You don't care!
What I care about is my country."
He cares so much that he doesn't answer questions asked of him. We offer debate every day, and all you offer are stories of very young girls in miniskirts.
"But as president I will back him. He is a "public servant" not a god."
Did you back Clinton? Or did you cry out, "No war for Monica?"
"This is our country and to have you liberals come out day after day to smear Bush, smears the country also."
So attacking the policies of a republican is treason, but attacking the families of Bush opponents is excusable because people at DC cocktail parties knew about it.
"Attack, attack, attack, its no wonder that the perception around the world is that the American people hate their own country."
Huh? Disagreeing with the leader is hating the country? More nationalistic bullshit.
"We're are at war over the ideology that will lead this country in the 21 ST century and letting you liberals win is not an option."
But letting fascism win is? Your party has been taken over by corporatists, and you don't seem to have a problem with it.
"The BS you spew forth is political rhetoric, you don't believe the allegations you put forth, its for that reason I don't debate.
It is a pathetically ignorant position to attack everything Bush has done, yet its all you have.
The fear I have is some poor sap will believe your rhetoric and act upon it."
gadfly, I'd like to introduce you to kettle. You two have alot in common.
BTW, you don't debate because you can't. In the last couple months, I have watched you fall back on insults, run from facts, and toss out long dicredited lies as fact. Explain it away however you like.
Posted by: Robster at July 3, 2005 02:23 PM
Good one again steevK
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 02:24 PM
glf.....when the shit hits the fan, start prayin'...i comin' for ya!
Posted by: hope spelled backwards=.sucker! at July 3, 2005 02:32 PM
Good one again steevK
Posted by: jlstexas
===========
Thanks! (blush)
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 02:38 PM
One thing we know for sure is that Bush doesn't control his own White House!If he did,why didn't when Plames' name was revealed didn't he tell his minons that by 5:00 this afternoon I want the person/persons responsible for this leak to have their resignations papers on my desk.Like every part of his life he has a excuse,one lame excuse after lame excuse.Maybe the Nat.Gd.was lucky that he went AWOL before he crashed a jet or killed someone,God only knows what a trail of death and destruction follows this limp-wrist,self-asorbed,putrid excuse of a human being!
Posted by: frank at July 3, 2005 02:40 PM
One thing we know for sure is that Bush doesn't control his own White House!If he did,why didn't when Plames' name was revealed didn't he tell his minons that by 5:00 this afternoon I want the person/persons responsible for this leak to have their resignations papers on my desk.Like every part of his life he has a excuse,one lame excuse after lame excuse.Maybe the Nat.Gd.was lucky that he went AWOL before he crashed a jet or killed someone,God only knows what a trail of death and destruction follows this limp-wrist,self-asorbed,putrid excuse of a human being!
Posted by: frank
==============
He CLAIMS he did give the "resignations on my desk by 5:00" - or at least Fox said he did. They then used this to "prove" that it wasn't anybody in his regime that leaked!?!? Must have been some OTHER admin's high officials - as per Novak. Maybe Clinton's admin??
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 02:52 PM
Sorry to arrive late, especially seeing the usual load of bollocks that our good friend glf49 has been displaying; I just have a couple of observations, nice little bit of re-writing reality he slipped in earlier - "attack attack attack, no wonder the perception around the world is that American people hate their own country"....dunno where you got that idea from, unless you believe all that stuff you watch on Fox, the perception around the world is that America hates anything that isn't American and is prepared to send its armies around the globe to enforce American corporations looting of the natural resources for the benefit of a greedy population back safe at home.
Equally amusing is the comment "Bush has been under constant attack since 2000", well given the repug dirty tricks in Florida to install Bush in the White House I would have welcomed some attacks from the media, however what I do remember is that the very first thing that Rove did when he set foot in the White House was give out a press release that the White House had been vandalised by the departing Democratic staff, that artwork was smashed, locks broken and glued shut and the w keys removed from typewriters.........all fantasy, all lies, all smear, all the nasty little games that Rove has made his trademark. Hopefully his career is finally about to be brought to a close, unless Rove manages to think up a convincing plot to shove the whole blame onto Bill Clinton somehow.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 3, 2005 02:53 PM
Equally amusing is the comment "Bush has been under
Mick Euro:
constant attack since 2000", well given the repug dirty tricks in Florida to install Bush in the White House I would have welcomed some attacks from the media, however what I do remember is that the very first thing that Rove did when he set foot in the White House was give out a press release that the White House had been vandalised by the departing Democratic staff, that artwork was smashed, locks broken and glued shut and the w keys removed from typewriters.........all fantasy, all lies, all smear, all the nasty little games that Rove has made his trademark.
=============
Don't forget the "Air Force One was looted/trashed" accusation - the USAF debunked that one! This, of course didn't stop the RW media whores from repeating it - to gain favor with Rove, and the rest of BushCo.
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 03:01 PM
My mommy says its not nice to make fun of the mentally challenged, she says I spend to much time on the computer. She says i need to spend more time playing with children of my own age.
I told her, I'am playing with children.......I have lost my computer "rights" for 2 whole days!
Posted by: gfl46 at July 3, 2005 03:03 PM
Fair enough glf46, we're used to you disappearing when you can't back up your mad statements, you lost your computer rights for two days, brilliant, its a holiday for us all to be free from your stupidity.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 3, 2005 03:08 PM
I bet the good Dr. Hunter S. Thompson would have truly loved this.
It also reminds me of that John Lennon tune "Instant Karma".
Rove getting in trouble for his actions would be a great example of his bad deeds coming back to bite him in the ass in this lifetime.
Posted by: Jack Kennedy's ghost at July 3, 2005 03:08 PM
This is truly embarrasing to the President, no question about it! If that were not the case, Fox News at this moment would be trying to shoot it down. Instead, right now they are going back and forth on the missing teen in Aruba, and the child that was found in Idaho. Not a mention so far as I have seen about the Rove story. In fact, they have quit mentioning the two reporters and the whole story has dropped off of their radar screen. Whats the over/under on how many days in a row they will cover this tabloid story? If she is not found in 2 months , 3 months, 1 yr? Will they beat this non important story forever if they have too, to protect 'Dubya'??
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 03:08 PM
g, "mentally challenged children", you can do better than that! lighten up g, man you are a thin skinned person!
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 03:16 PM
A Song For Karl Rove~
na-na naa-na,
na-NA Naa-Na,
Hey, Hey, Good-bye!
All the bloggers Now!
Na-Na Naa-Na,
Na-NA NAA-Na,
HEY, HEY, Good-bye!!
The Entire WORLD NOW!!!!
NA-NA NAA-NA,
NA-NA NAA-NA,
HEY, HEY, GOOD-BYE!!!
Posted by: Fred at July 3, 2005 03:20 PM
I just heard an interview with Lawerence O'Donnell. Because of technicalities he doesn't think Karl Rove will be in leagal trouble. I guess it's a very difficult case. However, he does think it's going to be political mess. Possibly with Rove stepping away.
Posted by: think about that at July 3, 2005 03:26 PM
I'm curious to see how the FOX news dimwits spin this one...
Posted by: rcalderon at July 3, 2005 03:27 PM
Didn't take long for Rove to get a lawyer... why this and his Dem bashing comments last week? Is this guy trying to find out what jail is like?
Posted by: Kid Hobo at July 3, 2005 03:31 PM
S.O.B. let the spin begin!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/03/cooper.rove/index.html
Posted by: Jack Kennedy's ghost at July 3, 2005 03:40 PM
Josh Marshall at TPM made an interesting observation:
". ...Fitzgerald shouldn't be pressing matter of jailing journalists unless he thinks he's on his way to prosecuting a serious crime.
So just a question: Would Fitzgerald have pushed to get Cooper and Miller in the slammer if some other party in the White House weren't in a lot of trouble?"
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 3, 2005 03:49 PM
This is the 2nd time Rove has leaked information to Robert Novak. Rove was fired as a Bush campaign advisor in '92 for leaking info to R. Novak.
Some people never learn...
Posted by: Michael Prince at July 3, 2005 04:28 PM
"Some people never learn..."
Unfortunatly people like Rove know that they're never going to have to pay for their criminal acts and are above the law as long as their friends are in charge of the White House and in charge of the main stream media.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 3, 2005 04:42 PM
"Unfortunatly people like Rove know that they're never going to have to pay for their criminal acts and are above the law as long as their friends are in charge of the White House and in charge of the main stream media."
He'll have a tough time getting out of this one. Fitzgerald doesn't report to DOJ, and even Bush doesn't have enough political capital to overcome a felony this serious.
Posted by: Dick Tuck at July 3, 2005 04:52 PM
I hope your right, Dick, but the Bush crime syndicate can't be trusted to play by normal rules; I wouldn't put anything past these maniacs, especially at a time when Bush is polling so low and the administration is itching to "liberate" Iran. Watch out for a distraction of massive proportions.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 3, 2005 05:07 PM
I hope your right, Dick, but the Bush crime syndicate can't be trusted to play by normal rules; I wouldn't put anything past these maniacs, especially at a time when Bush is polling so low and the administration is itching to "liberate" Iran. Watch out for a distraction of massive proportions.
Posted by: mick Euro at July 3, 2005 05:07 PM
=======================
Time to cross out "OIL" on those protest signs, and paint in "KARL" All together now "No War for KARL!"
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 05:57 PM
I like it! No war for Karl! lol
Posted by: Robster at July 3, 2005 06:12 PM
check this site out, don't know if the part about Karl Rove is true or not. From what I could tell , the things about former President Bush and Gov AAAhhnold seem to be accurate from the things that have been reported about them.
Once again, not saying if the stuff is true or not, but everyone check it out and as Fox says "We Report You Decide". The article is dated from Oct 2003 and back then the authors were convinced that it was Karl Rove who leaked the name.
www.commondreams.org/view03/1006-08.htm
Posted by: jlstexas at July 3, 2005 06:41 PM
Thinking back to Watergate, from when the breakin first became public until Nixon resigned was about two years---and all during that two year period came all of the denials and protestations of "I am not a crook"...
Guess we will see how this example of Republican abuse of power works out...
Posted by: Rich at July 3, 2005 06:48 PM
What is an undercover CIA agent anyway? It is a spy. It is a snitch. It is a turn-coat. It is a person, who pretends to be a friend, but is really an UNDERCOVER CIA AGENT who tells all your secrets to the people who want to destroy you. This of course, tends to make the target of the spy, very very angry. Everyone: from Bush's own Whitehouse, to the mafia, to foreign governments, anyone you are spying UPON, will not only be angry at this spy, they are ESPECIALLY angry at the people who 'FELL FOR or AIDED this spy'. And what happens to snitches, traitors, spies, ect - THEY GET KILLED! Someone pays them a VISIT and puts a BULLET IN THEIR HEAD. When Rove gave the HIGHEST POSSIBLE confirmation a person is a spy, that spy, and ALL THE PEOPLE THAT SPY WAS IN CONTACT WITH WHILE SPYING, get a ballistic attitude adjustment. How many people get assassinated over this kind of treason? CIA SPIES don't spy on Fitty Cent. They spy on dangerous powerful people. These Republicans need to go all World Police Puppet and be undercover in Al Qaeda, and have Rove tell Al Qaeda that they are a CIA spy. What do you think Al Qaeda would do to you after learning from America's President's OWN butt-boy you are a spy? ALL doubts vanish and as they say in Las Vegas, a whole bunch of holes get dug in the desert.
Posted by: Fastillion at July 3, 2005 07:15 PM
Fastillion:
It's worse than that. Plame and her team worked on nuclear non-prolifiration. Anybody see a connection here with the "Iraq has nukes," "mushroom clouds over our largets cities" propaganda BushCo used to sell his Showdown with Saddam (shades of High Noon)
Back during the election season, when GOPers would say Kerry isn't tough enough to protect us (but Bush IS???) I told them that Kerry has actually KILLED people - not just signed execution orders - ENEMIES. If Bush was so tough, and claimed he had a score to settle with Saddam, he should have challenged him to a duel - and saved over 200,000 people from loss of life & limb.
The chickenhawk Bush fans never replied. I wonder why?
Posted by: SteevK at July 3, 2005 08:19 PM