David Hunt & Juan Williams: What Planet Do These Guys Live On?
Reported by Marie Therese - May 31, 2005
Last night another telegenic host, Rick Leventhal, substituted (auditioned?) on the O'Reilly Factor. True to the Factor mix, he covered badly behaved children, radical university professors, white females in distress and, of course, the latest hype from Iraq. Leventhal's "Top Story" was Iraq for which he interviewed Colonel David Hunt who has written a recent book about terrorism full of *expletives deleted* language entitled "They Just Don't get It" and Juan Williams, billed for this show as a "FOX News Contributor & Panelist," but really a Liberal for Sale who rarely voices anything beyond a mush-mouthed centrism whenever he appears on FOX. They discussed Operation Lightning, the administration's latest intimidation tactic being used this week to frighten ordinary Iraqis into a state of panicked inaction.
Hunt actually stated the obvious. "Well, I don't think it's a very good start. First of all, I don't think it's a good thing to telegraph your tactics two weeks in advance. ... The terrorists are not sitting on their hands. They struck back."
When Leventhal attempted to compare this "early notification" to how the military handled Fallujah, Hunt quickly pointed out that we were attacking Fallujah in an all-out military assault. However, Operation Lightning is a search maneuver and in no way comparable.
Juan Williams reacted to Leventhal's question about whether or not we are winning the war with what sounded like a White House press release. He noted that in his latest conversation with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during her trip to the west coast, she blamed the press for the "sagging" public support for the Iraq war. "She said ... it's in a sense the media's portrayal of the constant drumbeat of look at the deaths, look at this explosion, look at the insurgents coming back despite the fact that the Iraqis now have an interim government in place.
"She said it's the long term you have to look at and the long term from her point of view, from the President's point of view, is that we are establishing a democratic stronghold in Iraq. That we are fighting the terrorists there. We are helping to build a new kind of vision for the Middle East that will help with the Israeli-Palestinian problem and she likened it to what we did in terms of transforming Europe in the course of World War II. She said it's no longer the case that you see European countries attacking each other. That's as the result of what the U. S. did. Look at Japan. [She said] that Japan is now the second largest contributor to the United Nations, to world peace. She said that's the result of U. S. efforts at democratization in World War II and that's what's going on now. So she thinks the long-term view and the kind of damage, the carnage that we saw today, Rick, she would say that's kind of what you have to do - steps along the path."
Williams went on to say that Rice "assumes" because there are American soldiers fighting over there that she believes that "we all have got to support them one way or another" no matter what one's political outlook. He went on to note the Secretary Rice is very concerned about foreign governments and how they will react to us.
Will they support us or will they say Iraq's "not ready for any kind of democratic government? ... There's some people who predict it's gonna divide. You're gonna have civil war. You're gonna have Sunni vs Shiites vs Kurds. If that's what's gonna happen, then the whole thing unravels and we've got total chaos."
Colonel Hunt - whom I have nicknamed Ol' Blood and Guts - reiterated his usual stance vis a vis what our next steps should be: "Oh, I think, for sure, more aggressive tactics. Again, politically, I would push the Syrians, the Iranians, the Saudi Arabians and I would get much more aggressive on the ground, which you're seeing them start to do. I would ramp it up for sure but I would also put a mark on the wall when our guys could start coming home."
Williams responded by saying that in Washington there are two wars: The military one and the political one. "At home they can't afford to ramp it up. They just think that the American people wouldn't take it at this point. But I think ...you gotta sell it. We're gonna win it and we're gonna win it now."
Of course, FOX News could not resist another dig at Amnesty International over their "stinging report" labeling the U.S. as a major violator of human rights at Guantanamo Bay.
Leventhal however started things off by misleading FOX viewers: "Last week the human rights group Amnesty International came out with a stinging report on the treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, calling the facility 'the gulag of our time.'"
In point of fact the report itself did not label Gitmo as a gulag. Those words were used by Irene Kahn, AI's general secretary, in her forward to the report. If one did not know this and were listening only to Leventhal, one might conclude that the report itself made this statement. But then this is a well-documented tactic at FOX News and elsewhere. Deliberately fudge on the language and thereby disinform your audience. Then get outraged over one petty little detail and use that to discredit the entire report.
On FOX News Sunday (5/29/05) Gen. Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, offered this in rebuttal: "I think it's absolutely irresponsible. If you look back at the policy of this government, where we said we treat people - the President said and we've all said we'll treat people humanely and where military necessity permits and in accordance with the Geneva Convention, we're doing that ..."
Leventhal went on to ask a question designed to throw the blame for weekend riots in the Middle East onto the shoulders of Amnesty International. (Aside: How do these people keep getting away with this stuff?)
LEVENTHAL: The question: Is this latest criticism of the United States to blame for the weekend's anti-American protests in the Arab world? We're continuing with Col. David Hunt and Juan Williams.
FOX then showed a clip of May 27th protest in Cairo, Egypt with Muslim women and children holding up a sign that said "WE CONDEMN THE SACRILEGE OF THE QURAN BY U S EXTREMISTS." What has "sacrilege against the Quran" got to do with Irene Kahn referring to Gitmo as a "gulag"? It would seem that the Arab world was protesting admissions last week by our own military that there have been at least five separate instances of Koran desecration at Guantanamo Bay.
LEVENTHAL: Juan, the Amnesty International report. Is it fair?
WILLIAMS: It's not fair. Well, I mean, you know, even Gen. Myers said they have to look at their definition of 'gulag' - I mean, it's an insult to the memory of what took place in the gulag to start talkin' like that. I think it's nuts. But let's, let's look at the serious problem here, Rick, which is - we have people who are ... what we call non-state combatants under our control and we have a struggle in terms of deciding how to treat them.
I mean, to my mind there's some who say it's a matter of propaganda, that this is being used around the world, damaging American interests and weakening support for the war. All that. In a sense you could make that case. But I'd rather make the case that it's a matter of how we feel about what we're doing. Are we doing the right thing? Are we getting information out of those guys?
No one in the intelligence community here in Washington has ever said to me: Oh, look, we're getting great information out of what's taking place at Abu Ghraib, what we've learned from the people who we've held in Afghanistan, even, so to speak, in Iraq - in Guantanamo, I should say - so what you see is a question of what are we doing, why are they still there and what are we getting out of them and so the value to me is diminishing and the problems escalating. We have to decide what we're gonna do there and I don't think - no one seems to want to step up to the plate and say let's get this thing out of here.
LEVENTHAL: Well, Colonel, that's a very legitimate point, that they may not be getting the kind of information out of these so-called terrorists that are being detained that one would expect and are these tactics and is the trouble worth it?
HUNT: Well, I think it is worth it The problem is we weren't ready for this war, Rick. I mean, we were not ready with interrogators. We didn't have a language capability, The military was not as ready as we should have been. So we have made some mistakes. But the gulag comparison is ridiculous. We are actually court martialing people. I said publicly and on this station that we should have held some more leaders, some generals and colonels, responsible. But we clearly have made some mistakes, but overall we've done very well.
We've released about 150 prisoners from Cuba. We've also relea - we had over 40,000 prisoners in Iraq. We've let a lot of them go and yes, there have been some problems and, yes, we've been beat up by it at the New York Times and others. But, we were not totally ready for this with the right kind of training in our active duty or reserves and some mistakes were made. But to suggest that this is Leninist or Stalinist, is completely, completely off the table. It's outrageous. Amnesty International is always in need of more fruit. The right side of their brain is not workin' very well.
LEVENTHAL: Well clearly, this was not - these are not forced labor camps like there were in the gulags.
HUNT: No, of course not.
LEVENTHAL: But the question is: Were these detainees and are these detainees being treated fairly as Gen. Myers says that they are?
HUNT: Oh, yeah.
LEVENTHAL: Do you believe they are being treated fairly?
HUNT: Yeah. There's no question. When you get - they're praying! I mean, there have been mistakes, because we had untrained men and women there but - let me tell you something, when we have prisoners taken, their heads get cut off. We're taking care - they're getting meals. They're getting exercise. We treat people extremely well in all the wars and we're doing it now. But there are mistakes. Not to minimize that ..
WILLIAMS: Right. But here's the question. When we hold somebody, then, what rights [do] they have in our courts? They have rights under the World Court. Do they have rights under the Geneva Convention? This is what Colonel Hunt was saying. You know, we weren't ready for a lot of these questions ...
LEVENTHAL: Right
WILLIAMS: ... and those questions continue to haunt us. You know the other day someone said to me: What other country gives someone who's their prisoner their book of religious worship? The Koran that Newsweek stirred all this controversy about. But, you know what, even with the Koran and telling them which was is east so they can properly pray, the whole issue is: Why are we continuing down this path if it has become so problematical?
HUNT: Because some of them are very bad guys, Juan. Some of them, as you know, we picked - some of them - they're very bad people, some of these guys.
WILLIAMS: They're bad guys.
HUNT: And I don't - we have to be very careful before we release them. We're at war, Juan.
WILLIAMS: Right.
HUNT: We gotta be careful with releasing bad guys back to kill us.
LEVENTHAL: A lot of people have made the point that a lot of the people doing these protests are in countries where they wouldn't have anywhere near the rights that our prisoners are given.
HUNT: Amen!
LEVENTHAL: And you're making that point, to an extent.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
LEVENTHAL: But when you see those pictures of flags being burned and people spitting on flags and effigies of the President . You know this is not good for America on any level and how, how do you change this tide? How do you change the perception of what's happening in such facilities?
HUNT: First of all we have to address - Rick, I think, first of all you have to address the fact that it's a holy war, that the Wahabi-ists, as an example, the state religion of our friends in Saudi Arabians, have hijacked a very great religion, Islam. And this religion - the Wahabi-ists say kill Jews, kill westerners and kill any Muslim who associates with a westerner or a Jew. We have to publicly denounce this and get these countries, like Saudi Arabia, that exports this stuff all over the world to stop it. It's certainly one way....
WILLIAMS: I think on this end I think we have to now put in place a policy. You know what? I think that what Col. Hunt said is right. Some of these guys are dangerous. You don't want to release them. OK. If that's the case, if they don't - it's not a matter of getting information - it's a matter that they are dangerous and would return to fight against us and kill Americans, we still have a right to hold them But let's set a policy. Let's determine what the cut off is. Let's determine if they have rights in our courts. Let's determine if we're gonna treat them as non-state combatants or people who have rights under the Geneva Convention, whatever. But let's make a determination. On that level it's the generals and it's the policymakers here in Washington who aren't steppin' up to the game, aren't stepping up to the plate.
LEVENTHAL: A lot of work left to be done.
HUNT: I think ya' gotta do both.
LEVENTHAL: Colonel, we gotta go. Thanks very much for joining us.
WILLIAMS: You're welcome, Rick.
NOTE: This post was updated on 5/31/05 at 10:00 PM EDT to correct an error. AI's secretary general Irene Kahn wrote the words "gulag of our time" in her forward to the report. The original wording implied that Ms. Kahn only read the words "gulag of our time."
