O'Reilly Guest: Gitmo Is a "Disaster"
Reported by Marie Therese - May 4, 2005
On Sunday night, "60 Minutes" aired an interview with former Army Sgt. Erik Saar, a trained linguist, specializing in Arabic, who assisted interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. The Sergeant has written "Inside the Wire," a book critical of procedures in use at Gitmo. The night after his "60 Minutes" segment, he appeared on The O'Reilly Factor (5/2/05). I thought our readers would enjoy comparing the two interviews. Click here to watch the CBS online video or read their transcript. Then check out the O'Reilly interview below and let us know your opinion about the obvious differences in interview style.
O'REILLY: A new book called "Inside the Wire: A Military Intelligence Soldier's Eyewitness Account of Life at Guantanamo" is causing major controversy. It's author, former Army Sgt. Erik Saar, says he witnessed questionable interrogations at Guantanamo Bay. Sgt. Saar was a translator and he joins us now. What was the worst thing you ever saw?
SAAR: You know, sir, I would have to say the worst thing I saw was some of the sexual tactics that were used in the interrogation booth and I would have to say the reason for that is because it really defied the values we stand for as a country ..
O'Reilly: Alright.
SAAR: ... and I think the Army values that I ...
O'REILLY: Now you told "60 Minutes" last night [Sunday, 5/1/05] that there were female interrogators who acted seductively around Muslim men and such. Right?
SAAR: Yes, sir.
O'REILLY: That's what you said.
SAAR: That's what I said, sir.
O'REILLY: That was the worst thing you saw in your stay there?
SAAR: Well, that was one of the worst - that was the worst thing I saw.
O'REILLY: OK.
SAAR: But there was also the whole atmosphere that was a loose command structure that led to ambiguous rules, a lack of discipline and a concept that we were gonna interrogate by trial and error and use tactics that were actually completely different from anything we had done historically.
O'REILLY: OK. You were there. I was there as well but I didn't - they didn't stage interrogations for me, I mean, obviously. But I have to say, with all due respect, Sergeant, if that's the worst thing they did at Guantanamo Bay - have a female interrogator act seductively - I'm OK with it. I'm OK with it. I'll tell you why. This is a war unlike any other. Some of these guys are the hardest core of the hard core. They would kill you and your wife in a heartbeat. OK? And if they're gonna try to use interrogation techniques to break them down - and that's what they're tryin' to do, alright? Make them confused. Make them just give up hope to get information. I'm OK with it. I could be wrong. Alright. I admit. I could be wrong. But if that's the worst thing you saw, I'm not gonna - I'm not throwin' any of our - our people in prison for that.
SAAR: The problem is - absolutely I don't want to throw any of our people in prison but, sir. you and I want the same thing. We want to win the war on terrorism.
O'REILLY: Information. That's right.
SAAR: And information that is going to help us win that war but the problem is the tactics that I describe in this book are ineffective and I'm not alone voice in this. The FBI e-mails that you ...
O'REILLY (interrupts): No. The FBI - that was powerful evidence. The FBI was e-mailing back to Washington that some of their techniques that they witnessed the military do disturbed them and that was powerful evidence and I'm not gonna diminish - now, you also said last night on "60 Minutes" that most of the detainees at Gitmo in your opinion were conscripts. Can you back that up for me?
SAAR: Yes, sir.
O'REILLY: Can you back that up for me?
SAAR: I can back that up based on the intelligence that I had access to and I am in no means saying that there are not bad individuals there , exactly as you had said, sir. But I think the perception that has been created by our government that as a place where we are holding the absolute worst of the worst is a false impression because ...
O'REILLY (interrupts): Yeah, but how to do you back it up, though. I've got facts that I'm gonna give ya' in a moment, but how do you back up the statement that there's only a few dozen hardcore Al Qaedas there or Taliban there?
SAAR: Well, sir, unfortunately there are - there's many classified documents that I'm referring to that I have - that was based ...
O'REILLY: That you saw?
SAAR: That I saw, that I had access to, based on the top secret security clearance ..
O'REILLY (speaks over virtually all of Saar's last statement): That said that there are only a few dozen really bad guys there? You saw that?
SAAR: Well, I saw the files of the individuals so I ...
O'REILLY: OK. Because this is what they tell me. There's 530 guys there right now. OK?
SAAR: Uh-huh.
O'REILLY: Half of them they're never gonna let out. When they were captured in Afghanistan on the battlefield, they underwent a rigorous, rigorous interrogation before they were sent to Cuba. In fact only 10% of those captured were sent. Is all of that not true?
SAAR: Well, sir, I think it's misleading. There were a number of individuals that I think if you talked to other interrogators that were there that we didn't know why they were there. We did know, in fact, that they were turned over by the Northern Alliance. We did know, in fact, that we had a file on them that said "This person claims to be X, Y and Z and we don't know anything else about them." And, in fact, we returned a number of them to their home countries based on the fact that we have deemed that they are innocent and they were wrongly apprehended.
O'REILLY (overtalks last 6 words): Yeah. So. (looks down as if reading something) We let a few go who came back and killed Americans, too. But what I'm trying to get at is this. The Army tells us - or the Pentagon tells The Factor - that they had a rigorous proceeding, alright, before they sent anybody half way across the world. Are you saying that's not true?
SAAR: I'm definitely saying that's not true in terms of ...
O'REILLY (interrupts): That they just picked these gu - 'cause they also say that the Afghans that they found they handed over to Kharzai. Very few Afghans at Gitmo. Is that true?
SAAR: Well, I couldn't give you the actual number, sir. I'd be out of the scope of what I remember as to how many Af - there were definitely a significant number of Afghanis there and Pakistanis. But the issue is also that - you know - what are we going to accept as a country in terms of how many innocent men we detain or men that ...
O'REILLY: You really think there's a lot of innocent men in Guantanamo Bay? 'Cause I've never heard anybody say that.
SAAR: Well I think there's ...
O'REILLY: When they're captured on the battlefield with weapons, I don't know how innocent ...
SAAR: Well, sir, you know, we're taking the word of the Northern Alliance who was also getting a bounty for a number of the individuals that they turned over to us.
O'REILLY: But still (exasperated sigh) we're taking the word, but then they were processed by our people, our CIA people and our military intelligence people before they were put on that plane. Least that's [what they're] tellin' me. Maybe they're lyin' to me. I don't know, Sergeant. I'm just askin' you.
SAAR: Right. And I don't want to create the impression that I'm saying there's not bad individuals there but what I'll say is that the point I'm trying to make in my overall experience in the tactics that I witnessed and some of the very questionable techniques that were used that were not only ineffective but I thought that were morally inconsistent with who we are as a country. The overall process that we have at Guantanamo Bay is a disaster.
O'REILLY: OK. Alright. Mr. Saar. Very provocative book and anybody interested in the - uh - book called "Inside the Wire." Thank you for coming in here, sir.
SAAR: Thank you for having me.
O'REILLY: Good to meet you. I appreciate it.
SAAR: Thank you.
