O'Reilly: 300 Cases of Abuse and 37 Murder Investigations Acceptable Collateral Damage in the War on Terror
Reported by Marie Therese - March 3, 2005
On Tuesday (3/01/05), Bill O'Reilly lashed out again at the ACLU and Human Rights First, who have filed a joint lawsuit against Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. He addressed the suit both in his Talking Points Memo, which you can read here and in an interview with Michael Posner of Human Rights First and Jonathan Turley, professor of Constitutional Law at George Washington University. However, it really was two against one, only this time it was O'Reilly who was the lone voice of unreason. Mr. Turley, who is usually a rubber stamp for the FOX News right wing viewpoint, broke ranks and refused to repudiate the ACLU-Human Rights First lawsuit - which might mean that Mr. Rumsfeld has more than a little something to worry about this time. My transcript follows.
O'REILLY: And now for the top story tonight. Two other views. With us now - Mike Posner, Executive Director of Human Rights First and, from Washington Jonathan Turley, who teaches constitutional law at George Washington University. Alright, Professor, is this a winner, this lawsuit on behalf of eight foreign nationals against Rumsfeld?
TURLEY: Well, I think you have to bet against the plaintiffs in the case. It's not a frivolous case. there are some cases where you've had accountability for some actions outside the country, but the federal courts are very hostile to the application of US laws to foreign nationals for conduct outside the country. Indeed, persons under the Constitution is defined as meaning US citizens or foreign nationals within the country. Now, that doesn't mean that this is meritless. It's just the most difficult type of lawsuit you could possibly bring.
O'REILLY: Alright. And I think ACLU and Human Rights First knows this but they want to make a statement, don't they? They want to make a statement that the Bush administration are the TORTURERS (his emphasis). They want to portray us in front of the world as barbarians, don't they, Professor?
TURLEY: Well, in fairness to the ACLU, you know there is ongoing debate as to who approved or who may have acquiesced to the torture. And many people are not satisfied. But this complaint doesn't contain a lot that is new. There is no real smoking gun here to say that Rumsfeld personally knew ...
O'REILLY (cuts him off): No. They just want to embarrass him. Let's go to Human Rights First. (exasperated) Mr. Posner, come on! Fightin' a war on terror. Your family's gotta be protected. Everybody watchin's family and - I don't know whether you concur with the ACLU. Not one terror measure do they support. Nothing, sir!
POSNER: Well, there are many measures taken by the Bush administration that we support.
O'REILLY: Like?
POSNER: Enhanced airport security. Enhanced inspections of the ports. More support for our first-line defenders - police, fire. Those are all things that are right. They're good for our national security and they're rights-neutral. This lawsuit is about something that we shouldn't countenance as a people and that is torture and abuse of people in US custody. There are more than 300 cases that have been reported, where people say that they've been abused in US custody. There are investigations of those thir -
O'REILLY (interrupts, agitated): There's 300,000 people in the field and 300 cases is nothing! (looks at his notes) And there is a hundred, a hundred military being prosecuted right now by the US military, a hundred!!
POSNER: No ...
O'REILLY (won't let him speak, intensely, louder): Look. Don't you understand? Look. I respect you for comin' in here. Everybody watchin' tonight doesn't like you. They don't like the ACLU. We're talkin' 90% of the audience. It's unreasonable to do what you're doin'. Against floating wiretaps. Against coerced interrogation. Against any proactive measures to try immigration. Local and state police can't get information on illegal immigrants. (lowers voice) Come on!
POSNER (calmly): Bill, let's start with the focus of the suit. The focus of this suit is that Secretary Rumsfeld initiated a policy which loosened the restraints on interrogation.
O'REILLY: Yeah. Coerced interrogation.
POSNER: Coerced interrogation. And many people in the military say this has made it more difficult for the military to maintain order and discipline and it's endangered our troops in the field. We were joined today by a retired admiral and a retired general, who believe ....
O'REILLY (interrupts): You can always dig these people up. In three and a half years you've got 300 alleges. Alright! That's nothing!
POSNER: Well, 37 people have ....
O'REILLY (louder): THAT'S NOTHING!!
POSNER (still calm): 37 people have died in US custody.
O'REILLY: Yeah. It's a war on terror, Professor! I know you're sympathetic to Mr. Posner, alright.
Jonathan Turley smiles broadly.
O'REILLY (intensely): But ya' gotta - you guys gotta understand how absurd this whole thing is, when you oppose everything, Professor. Every measure to fight terror is opposed and a lot of them are in the courts now, because of the ACLU. People are getting angry about this! They're getting furious about it!
TURLEY: Well, look, I don't always agree with the ACLU, but, quite frankly, I'm glad they're there. I mean, it does take courage, as you noted with a guest tonight, to say unpopular things.
O'REILLY: That's true.
TURLEY: And many of our injuries as a nation have been self-inflicted in times of war and so there is a very important role here ...
O'REILLY (interrupts): There has to be perspective! 300 alleges after three and a half years with 300,000 troops in the field is NOTHING (his emphasis)! And they want to humiliate Rumsfeld to give Al Jazeera a news cycle to tell everybody in the world we're torturers. It's flat-out wrong!!
TURLEY: I don't expect ...
O'REILLY (an aside to to Posner who's in studio with him) I'm gonna give you the last word. (to Turley) Go ahead.
TURLEY: I don't expect the lawsuit is going to prevail because it's a very difficult type of legal argument ot make.
O'REILLY (overtalks last 7 words): But then, say it's wrong!!!
TURLEY: But it's not frivolous and there's issues here and we'll have to see. But we have a court system to hash that out.
O'REILLY: Alright. yeah. We have a court system that they're using to paralyze us and it's wrong. I'm gonna give you the last word uninterrupted, Mr. Posner. You're gonna have thirty seconds to say whatever you want.
POSNER: Bill, Bill, for three years we've been concerned about these practices. We've been pushing Congress to create a 9/11-style Commission to examine the whole process of interrogation and detentions. We want to see the rules changed back so that the Army Field Manual is in place, so that rights are respected and so that we restore the rule of law in this country. That's what we're tryin' to do. We've been frustrated by this. This lawsuit is a last resort, aimed at holding Mr. Rumsfeld accountable for breaking the law.
O'REILLY: Alright. Mr. Posner, you're a stand-up guy. The ACLU is not. They won't come in. Mr. Posner will and that's the difference and, of course, Professor, you're always a stand-up guy and we appreciate your comin' in.
TURLEY (laughs): Thank you.
