How to Drive a FOX Host Batty!
Reported by Marie Therese - February 7, 2005
This is a follow-up posting to News Hound Deborah's original report about Friday's O'Reilly Factor. Substitute host John Gibson interviewed two of Professor Ward Churchill's students, Chris Maes and Dustin Craun. I thought our readers would enjoy reading a transcript of the interview, primarily because the two young men drove Gibson absolutely crazy, mainly by staying calm, focussed and "on message." By the end of the segment he was literally yelling at them, saying that Churchill had "polluted" them. The more he yelled, the saner they seemed. Unfortunately, due to his profuse use of overtalking and interruption, a lot of what they were saying could not be deciphered on a first viewing. So, I thought I'd help them out by transcribing the interview below. Kudos to these two young men for maintaining their composure under attack from one of FOX's most vocal and opinionated hosts!
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW OF THE O'REILLY FACTOR, FEBRUARY 4, 2005
HOST: JOHN GIBSON. GUESTS: CHRIS MAES AND DUSTIN CRAUN, STUDENTS AT UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO
GIBSON: But first, our top story tonight. The University of Colorado Board of Regents met behind closed doors last night to determine the fate of Professor Ward Churchill. As you may know, Churchill published some controversial comments about 9/11 victims, calling them "little Eichmanns." The Regents decided to launch a 30-day investigation into the Professor, then decide - er - decide whether he should keep his job. Joining us now from Denver are two of his students at CU - Chris Maes and Dustin Craun. Mr. Craun was arrested at a protest yesterday. So let me start with Mr. Craun, since you were arrested, you get to go first.
CRAUN: OK.
GIBSON: Why do you think Churchill should keep his job?
CRAUN: Really, this is a first amendment issue and Professor Churchill should have the right to speak the things he believes, especially as a University professor as long as he can back those things up with fact.
GIBSON: Uh - ya' might of stepped in a slippery spot there. But let me go to Chris Maes first. Chris, why don't you tell me why you - I take it you do think he should keep his job?
MAES: Yes, I do. I believe Professor Churchill is a wonderful, wonderful man. He's taught a lot of students a whole lot of things and to have his name slandered and have [indecipherable] ...
GIBSON (overtalks last 5 words): How's he being slandered? If he's being slandered, it's by his own words!
MAES: Well, the quotations the media repeatedly reports take the whole essence of his book out of perspective. He doesn't get a fair representation whatsoever. I believe in my own opinion that the Chancellor [and Board of Regents] showed that by not giving any fair representation of him through their statements they made yesterday ...
GIBSON (interrupts): Well, wait a minute. Now, you know, I spent some time reading for my own book the websites and the newspapers in the Middle East. I mean, what he said was straight out of the jihadi websites. This is Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabiya stuff!
MAES: That's your opinion, sir.
GIBSON: Well, it is my opinion and that's why I wanna ask you about it. What pos - from our point of view what possible reasonableness is there in blaming the victims of 9/11?
MAES: Well, I'm not gonna really try to speak for Professor Churchill. But I do believe that any American that's interested in reading his paper or his essay should read it for themselves and make their mind up for themselves. We don't need the media or the government telling us what to do.
GIBSON (louder, overtalking Maes' last 9 words): Mr. Craun, what is it that he's teaching you?!!
CRAUN: What is it that he's teaching me?
GIBSON: I mean, if these are the things ..
CRAUN: He's teaching me to stand up ...
GIBSON (interrupts): If he's saying these things, why shouldn't I assume that he's teaching you, Mr. Maes, the same sorts of thing. Maybe he has free speech, but he might be fired for incompetency, if this is what he is teaching you!!
CRAUN: If you look at Professor Churchill's writings, which are more than 25 published books, you'll see that he's in no way incompetent. He brings about the history of the United States and shows our history of continuous warfare since 1776. And the ideology that, if you continue to kill peoples' children, then things are gonna come back to get you at some point and that's what breeds terrorism in the United States.
GIBSON (literally speaks over Craun, but the audience could still hear Craun because the vocal timbres were so different): Well, what was it, though, that he said! He said - he's said - blame - he blamed the victims of 9/11. He said they were essentially killers by proxy. What possible explanation in fact ...
CRAUN: He's saying ...
GIBSON: ...is there for that?
CRAUN: ... is what I believe Professor Churchill is saying, is he's saying that all Americans who allow their government to do these things that it's doing throughout the world - currently in Iraq and Afghanistan - can expect that people will one day be upset and in some cases push back, as the title of the article states.
GIBSON (overtalks last 7 words): Well, what would, what would the professor say, I mean, what would - I haven't heard - what would the professor say about eight million people comin' out to vote in the Iraqi elections?
CRAUN: We haven't seen Professor Churchill much this week and I can't tell you what he said.
GIBSON (cuts him off): Mr. Maes, you're smilin' about it. Is that something to be derided?
MAES: No, I believe you're asking us a question we can't possibly answer. You'd have to speak to Mr. Churchill about that.
GIBSON: Well, I'll ask you. What do you think about it? If you endorse his views and you think he has a right to compare the people who were killed on 9/11 ...
MAES (interrupts): I'm not endorsing anything. I'm endorsing my first amendment right. I'm endorsing academic freedom. That's what I'm endorsing.
GIBSON (loudly): Wait a minute! Wait a minute! You are here to defend Professor Churchill!
MAES: Yes, I am.
GIBSON: Does that mean you won't defend his write - what he wrote?
MAES: I do defend what Professor Churchill wrote. That is his opinion, that is his entitlement. And coming to a public university, he is entitled to present his views and I'm entitled as a student to get that view and make up my own mind. I don't need the government or anybody else telling me what to think.
GIBSON (overtalks last 9 words so audience can only get a garbled version of Maes' response): You don't want to say what you think?
MAES: I think his essay tries to pinpoint or show why there's hatred in the world towards us. I'm not agreeing with anything or disagreeing, but I think he's entitled to express his opinion as to why he thinks it - thought it -happened and ...
GIBSON (interrupts, overtalks 4 words): But, Mr. Craun, let me put it this way. This is a very, very emotional and raw, raw subject. Could Mr. Churchill be so disconnected from reality as to not expect this kind of reaction, if he wrote something like that?
CRAUN: Are Americans so disconnected from reality that they [indecipherable]
CROSSTALK
GIBSON: No, come on!! Let's not play rhetorical games here!!
CRAUN: If they continue ... No. I'm sayin'
GIBSON: Have you got an answer to the question?
CRAUN: I'm not. I'm saying are we so disconnected to reality that we won't expect that, if you kill half a million Iraqi children, that people will not come back in an act of terrorism?
GIBSON (loudly, overtalks 11 words): Mr. Craun, give me a break!! Do you think Mr. Churchill expected this reaction? If he did, then tell me why I shouldn't think he did it on purpose in order to get this reaction, in order for the Regents ...
CRAUN: Why did it take the media three years to find this essay? It's been written for three years. How did it take you so long?
GIBSON: I have no idea! You know what? I don't go Google Ward Churchill every day, but it has come to our attention. And it does seem to be a despicable thing to say. Why did he say it?!
CRAUN: He said it because he's being very patriotic in that he's hoping that no more terrorist attacks happen in the United States. He's trying to explain why terrorist attacks have happened in the United States and he's hoping that no more happen ...
GIBSON: OK. Why does he take the line ....
CRAUN: .. our government continues to ...
MAES: [indecipherable] as well.
CRAUN: It's going to continue to happen ...
END CROSSTALK.
MAES: [indecipherable - might have said "Interesting" or "Listening"]
GIBSON: Why do you think he has taken the line ...
MAES: I believe ...
GIBSON (stridently): ... that we have heard from Osama bin Laden, Ayman al Zawahiri, we heard on Al-Jazeera every day and we heard from the jihadis on their website. Why is Mr. Churchill aligned himself with the people who've declared war on this country?!!
MAES: I don't believe he's aligned himself with them. What he's doing as a professor ... his job ....
GIBSON (very loudly, overtalks last 5 words): He's parroting their views!!!
MAES (calmly): His job is to cause discourse and cause debate. As a professor, you're supposed to make students think and make their minds up for themselves. Every day through the media you get the American perspective. He's showing the other side of the story.
GIBSON (loudly overtalks last 15 words so it is impossible to make sense out of Maes' comments on the first hearing): I'm tryin' to get to that, Mr. Maes! (Jabs his finger at the camera.) Tell me what you think about what he said!!
MAES: I think his statements are his own way of trying to explain what took place. He's tryin' to ...
GIBSON (belligerent, overtalks last 5 words): Yeah, but do you think he's right?!!
MAES: It doesn't matter what I think. He has a right to say ....
GIBSON (yelling, overtalks last 6 words): No!! But it does!!! Because he's a teacher and you're a student!!! What happened to you, listening to this teacher!!!!
MAES (calmly, overtalks last 4 words): I have a right, I have a right to decide on - for my own. But that's not it, that's not [indecipherable] ...
GIBSON (loudly, overtalks last 8 words): You're dodgin' the question!!! He's polluted both your minds and for THAT REASON ...
MAES (smiles, calmly, shakes his head): That is not true, sir.
GIBSON (overtalks last 5 words): ... he should be FIRED!!!
MAES: That is not true.
GIBSON (loudly, overtalks last 4 words): Mr. Maes, Mr. Craun. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. billoreilly.com poll question will be open for business over the weekend. "Should Professor Churchill be fired from the University of Colorado" even if he collects a HUGE amount of money in a lawsuit?!! billoreilly.com, if you want to weigh in!
